Canister Filter--very confused

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 10 Feb 2007, 00:38

I have come to the conclusion my AquaClear 200 isn't going to cut it. How I reached that conclusion is more than I care to make you kind folks read through. If asked, of course I'll provide the details but let me cut to the chase.

I'm considering upgrading to a Rena XP2 or XP3 as soon as possible. My tank is only 29 US gallons. If you're in another country my signature gives the metric and UK equivalents as well as the dimensions.

But the confusion I have--I think despite the XP2 being rated for 75 gallons, I think I want the extra basket of the XP3 because it offers more flexibility adding media I may need now and in the future. However, is it too much horsepower?

Here's the specs:

XP2 up to 75 gallons, Dimensions: 9-1/2" x 8-1/2" x 14-3/4", 2 media baskets, up to 300 gph flow rate.

XP3: up to 175 gallons, Dimensions: 9-1/2" x 8-1/2" x 17" 3 media baskets, up to 350 gph flow rate.

In reading various customer reviews it's my understanding a lot of people experienced a far reduced flow rate with both Rena models than what is stated by the mfr.

I think the XP2 would work fine for my 29 gallon in terms of power. But XP3 as I said offers more flexibility. Also I'm confused because I've read that you can't have too much filtration and should buy the biggest you can afford. Well if I buy online I can afford the XP3.

But is it too much filter for my tank? Will it blow my fish around too much? Right now they can rest in 3/4 of the tank if they don't want to fight the current from the Aquaclear. Also, they are still "children" and not nearly their expected size at maturity. Current shouldn't be too much trouble when they grow up.

I came across only one customer who had the same size tank I have who was running the XP3. He was thrilled with it, but he never stated what kind of bioload he was dealing with.

Theoretically I have a modest bioload for my size of tank. But with the problems I have been having, you'd think I had a colony of Oscars in there instead of skinny little juvenile "clean" species who are very good about eating all their food and not leaving any crumbs. And no...I'm not messing with my tank anymore. I vac up floating poop during water changes and that's it. All I'm doing is small controlled water changes to battle AMMONIA spikes that I thought were in the past. Gah.

I also have an oxygen problem. I can't let the tank be filled all the way up to just where the glass meets the black frame. I have to leave a couple of inches clear so that outflow from the AquaClear can stir up enough turbulence to oxygenate the tank. I'm running at 76F right now and still have to do this. I also have a Rena Air pump--really weak, though. Not enough bubble power to do anything. If I fill the tank to where it's supposed to be, I end up with lethargic catfish who don't eat, don't swim, breathe hard and don't seem to enjoy life. Partially filled, and it's a cory party--totally normal appearance and behavior.

I'm hoping the cannister filter will give just enough turbulence to oxygenate the tank without having to leave it partially filled.

My only other contender is one of the Eheims, probably one in the Classic series. However, I'm not sure I'm up to the task of maintaining them. I also can't find accessories and parts or basically anything for them in the brick and mortar stores, but I can for the Rena. It's either Fluval, Rena or Magnum that the stores seem to stock for.

PsYcHoTiC_MaDmAn · Post by **PsYcHoTiC_MaDmAn** » 10 Feb 2007, 00:54

i'd go for the XP3 (or more likly with me a fluval 405, as i can get them cheaper, and i like fluvals, however no rena experience)

first of all, all manufacturors are overly optermistic about flow rates. so the XP3 WONT be pushing out 350g/ph

on top of that there are various methods for reducign flow, such as spraybars, which if set up pointing towards the surface (i put mine at the end of the tak so it "blows" down the length) then it will create a good flow as well as lots of surface movement (mine is 1/2 way down the tank (so about 8" below water surface set at a 45degree angle) and it ripples the water

just make sure there is a slight gap 1-2cm between the water surface and any cover glass you may have in order to allow the water to exchange the gasses.

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 10 Feb 2007, 02:04

Thanks so much! I was also just online window shopping the Eheim Ecco series. Flow rates are really paltry compared to the Rena XP3's. But Ecco's are supposed to also be easy to set up and maintain and I can find quite a few parts and accessories for them online. I couldn't find a spraybar for XP3, but I found them for FluVal. FluVal doesn't enjoy the same reputation in the US as I have read some people state that it does in the UK. Also from what I can see online the price in the US is higher.

One thing about the XP3, I would have to do some modifications right out of the box to contend with a whistle problem. I'd have to take a drill and enlarge holes in the spray bar to alleviate an annoying whistling noise.

Oh well from what I have read, they all have their pros and cons and quirks. I know Apistomaster likes Eheims and he's been at this a long time so I do feel a comfort zone in adding an Ecco to my short list.

Thanks for your advice and description of your set up, Madman! All of my fish seem to enjoy some current so I'll try to set up a little modest river feel for them.

P.S> I will definitely keep the Aquaclear going on my tank for a good long time in addition to the cannister. Otherwise I will NEVER get my tank fully cycled!

PsYcHoTiC_MaDmAn · Post by **PsYcHoTiC_MaDmAn** » 10 Feb 2007, 02:22

P.S> I will definitely keep the Aquaclear going on my tank for a good long time in addition to the cannister. Otherwise I will NEVER get my tank fully cycled!

just dump the bio media into the filter basket, no cycle, single filter.

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 10 Feb 2007, 04:52

Oh, yeah, that's right! I could do that. Duh! I totally overlooked that one. Thanks again!

WhitePine · Post by **WhitePine** » 10 Feb 2007, 06:52

I have had both eheims and the xp2. For you purposes I would just go with the xp3(it comes with spraybar and all the other hardware). Set it up and see if you have any whistling... you probaly won't. The ecco ehiems are nice... but the classics and Eheim Pro II Filters are great. I really like the ease of priming on the pro II.

Cheers, Whitepine

Post by **Marc van Arc** » 10 Feb 2007, 08:42

WhitePine wrote: The ecco eheims are nice... but the classics and Eheim Pro II Filters are great. I really like the ease of priming on the pro II.

I know little about Rena filters. The brand Rena is almost gone from the Dutch market (afaics). They made very good heaters. So if you're happy with the Rena specs, go for it.
Should you decide to go for Eheim, I'd strongly suggest to prefer the classic or Pro types to the eccos.

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 10 Feb 2007, 08:42

Thanks WhitePine.

I did a google search for more reviews and information about both Eheim Ecco's and XP3's. I think the spraybar issue on the XP3's is for an older version. They've done some revisions since then. I just ordered the XP3 from Petsmart online for about $105 USD. Saved a lot vs. the price my local Petsmart was charging for them--I don't remember the exact amount but the XP2 was going for about 130 in-store. I think perhaps I could have found it for even less elsewhere, but I wanted to go with an online source where I could do returns or exchanges locally, in person, if necessary.

Eheim Classics are probably beyond my capability to install and maintain at this point, going by the comments I've read on what it takes to clean them out. Maybe I'm mistaken on that. Hard to know when this kind of filter is so new to me.

But I'm not just considering my own mechanical ability or potential lack thereof, but how difficult and/or time-consuming maintenance work on my tank already can be with a two-year old running around. She loves to play with me and resents already what time I have to spend on the tank while she's awake and ready for some fun. She's good-natured about it because she cares about the fish, but still, if I can go with any option that speeds me through a chore and gives me more playtime with my daughter or time for my stacks of other chores, I'll give it a try.

Pro II was beyond my budget at this point, though I did give it a look and some research anyway. It is a thing of beauty! Almost a shame to hide it in a cabinet!

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 10 Feb 2007, 09:00

Hi Marc,
Actually I considered your previous comments on the Ecco very carefully while I did my research. I looked over past posts and comments about the various models I was considering or just interested in because they were cool, like the Pro II's. I did come across a disconcerting number of accounts of the Ecco's breaking while being primed or stressing and falling apart while running. However I think the issue has been solved now on the most current Ecco's. It's hard for me to tell for certain.

That wasn't entirely a factor in my choice though. To be honest it was quite close. I had at any given time, either the XP3 or the Ecco in my online shopping cart.

Post by **Marc van Arc** » 10 Feb 2007, 09:53

hellocatfish wrote: Eheim Classics are probably beyond my capability to install and maintain at this point, going by the comments I've read on what it takes to clean them out. Maybe I'm mistaken on that.

Yes, you are. But the fact that you've already chosen the Rena makes all other options academic.
I truly hope the Rena will work to your expectations and satisfaction.
Btw: I'm not an Eheim sales person

bronzefry · Post by **bronzefry** » 10 Feb 2007, 16:32

hellocatfish!
I have both Eheims(Pro 2s) and an XP2. The XP2 is a great first canister filter since it introduces you to the world of plumbing. I have the Eheims on a 55 gallon tank and a 75 gallon tank. The XP2 is on a 29 gallon tank:

The XP3 is taller than what you see in the photo. With either the XP2 or XP3 on the 29 gallon tank, you can't go wrong.

Amanda

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 11 Feb 2007, 01:26

I have 6 Aquaclear HOB #50 and I find it hard to believe they produce too much flow for any kind of fish. I know they are rated to run 50 gal tanks but I won't use one as the only filter on anything over 15 gallons. Then there is the little matter of the reduction of their flow at a fairly rapid rate
I think all the canister filters that have been recommended are good choices. To make an Eheim Classics as easy to maintain as the others just buy a few filter media bags so you dont have a bunch of loose stuff to deal with and the meadia in the bags can be quickly rinsed out under a faucet. It is then as easy or even easier than other brands to clean although they too can use media bags and then put into their respective baskets making them even easier to handle.
I have only owned Ehiems since 1969 so I guess I'm a satisfied Ehiem customer.

WhitePine · Post by **WhitePine** » 11 Feb 2007, 01:39

too bad you already ordered your xp3 online... as most Petsmarts will honor the online prices. You might want to call your local deathmart and see if they match there online prices. You could cancel and pick it up tonight or tomorrow though.

Cheers, Whitepine

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 11 Feb 2007, 03:16

Hi whitepine.
You slay me, "deathmart", but so apropro.

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 11 Feb 2007, 14:20

My order hasn't been filled or shipped yet so I can probably call and cancel. But I won't be getting to PetsMart anytime soon, and I ordered some other stuff I couldn't find at the brick&mortar PetsMart nearest me. Additionally, this PetsMart is always out of stock on so many items anyway. So I'll just go ahead and wait for it to be delivered. My fish so far are hanging in there doing their fishy thing so my ASAP isn't exactly URGENT ASAP. I can limp along as I've been doing and keep the water quality livable.

The only problem is I may lose another danio to that weird wasting disease. I don't know if it's tuberculosis or the Danio disease first identified in the lab danios. Probably the latter. Everyone else is fat and sassy. For now, anyway.

Amanda, thanks for the input about the Rena. I'm so glad to hear from someone who has one and that it works well.

I can imagine how nice the Eheim Pro II is, and with the self-priming feature I think that would be the sweet one to have. I probably can have it next year...this year we're getting new windows put on the house so I am trying to cut costs short-term wherever it makes sense. If I can get good & easy filtration for under $150, I have to at least try it. If I really don't like it, I think PetSmart has an unconditional return guarantee. Or so they say on their website.

Okay, why do you all call them "Deathsmart"? I never bought anything other than pet supplies and a Gerbil and some hamsters from them which were all healthy and happy, so what's the source of this rather funny but unflattering nickname?

bronzefry · Post by **bronzefry** » 11 Feb 2007, 17:02

Larry,
PetSmart is the only "LFS" around me that doesn't sell dyed fish.....sad, isn't it?
Amanda

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 11 Feb 2007, 19:12

Many of us make fun of the big chain store Pet shops because they are a great source for sick fish that usually die. That said, I would venture to say we all have bought fish from them. Even these stores get the odd or rare species in especially by accident. You got to get these where you find them They lack the knowledgeable staff of a better specialize fish store so it more cavear emptor than a more reliable source.
Sorry if it wasn't funny to you this time but it may be later as you progress through this hobby.
It was not aimed at any individual, just the big chains.

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 11 Feb 2007, 21:00

Sorry Larry,
You misread me--I said it was funny! Just wasn't sure what they'd done to earn the nickname, though, among aquarists, since I'd never bought fish from them. I find that some of their information signs are a little misleading about estimated sizes at maturity. But their stock generally looks a LOT better than that at the 2 LFS's that I visit most often. I also am impressed by the labels at my local PetCo. They're very informative and accurate and will warn you what species are not for beginnners and what is likely to outgrow all but the largest of tanks. Staff at both places may not be that well-informed but they are professional.

At the individually owned LFS staffing is always a dicey issue where I live. One LFS I used to respect lost my business when they switched over to student part-timers who clearly didn't understand ANYTHING about their fish or that you're not supposed to put your arm around a married woman old enough to be your mother and say "Hey sweetheart, can I help you with some fish?" and then repeatedly address your customer as sweetie everytime you walk by.

We ARE south of the Mason-Dixon line, and the guy WAS cute...but sheesh! LOL! And then leaving dead fish floating in half of the tanks...most of which had labels that no longer meant a thing because clearly the stock had been re-arranged, that's just not a good sign.

What a shame...just a couple of months ago they were quite an impressive establishment. I wonder if the owner went on some type of leave or vacation. When he was around, he kept his staff busy updating labels and the tanks looked a lot better.

The other LFS where I bought all of my fish has teens doing most of the work, but these kids take their jobs seriously and have a decent grasp of the hobby. They have dead fish in their tanks, too, and their plants are in horrendous shape overall. But so far I haven't had any fish come in with ich or obvious signs of parasite infestation. There was the first Danio I lost to emaciation within a day, but when he was in their tank he were merely very thin. I don't fault them for missing that.

And there's this one young man there who is really great. He was the one who got me set up with my first two purchases of fish. He's good at catching them and packaging them up--never lost ANY of the fish he fetched for me when I got them home. He's also honest and up front about what he knows and doesn't know, and tells me which fish he knows for sure are dyed, and which he's not too sure about.

That's about it for options. When I was a kid, there were a lot more LFS's around. There is one other within reasonable driving distance but it's off the usual route my husband and I take to run our weekend errands, and I don't know that area well enough to find it myself, so I haven't been there yet.

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 11 Feb 2007, 21:07

Amanda, if you're still following this thread, that is, I was looking at your setup and wondering when you want to sit and look at your fish, do you pull up a chair in the center?

My tank is in the family room but NONE of my furniture is facing the tank. The tank is sort of off in a corner by itself. Fortunately I can just go up a step and grab one of the kitchen chairs and a tv tray and plunk down in front of the tank and watch the fish as I grab a bite to eat. LOL--so the fish come up to watch ME eat. Hmm...I hope they don't fret if I'm overfeeding myself.

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 11 Feb 2007, 23:32

Hi Hellocatfish,
You were right, I must have misinterpreted you and I try not to be offensive unless I really mean it. There are a few times...
I don't know of that many flawless LFS in the USA Pacific NW but there are always those that stand out from the others. The cost of employees makes most have to have some minimumwagers who do it out of their own interest in fish and for the employee discounts but these tend to novice aquarists at this point in their involvement in the hobby. It puts much of the onus back on the customer to try to learn as much as they can about the fish that they are considering buying them and to hone their own aquarist skills. I always urge novices to get a good reference book to help them get a better overview of their aquarium hobby such as H. Baensche's Aquarium Atlas, Vol. I. That is not such a bad thing. Still. we all make impulse purchases and then figure out what we have gotten ourselves into.

WhitePine · Post by **WhitePine** » 12 Feb 2007, 02:22

hellocatfish wrote: Okay, why do you all call them "Deathsmart"? I never bought anything other than pet supplies and a Gerbil and some hamsters from them which were all healthy and happy, so what's the source of this rather funny but unflattering nickname?

I actually picked that one up from Shane... but every time I go to Petsmart, I see lots of floaters. Maybe it's just the Deathmarts I visit though.

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 12 Feb 2007, 12:29

Hmm...I think where I live what makes the difference is real estate values. This one county I'm living in now is ridiculous. My husband and I can afford to live here mainly because we bought & sold our prior properties wisely & hubby's salary increased just ahead of the curve every time we decided to move.

I think the individual proprieters have to skimp on staff and cut some other corners the rest of you all probably don't see cut much in your neck of the woods...just so they can make the ridiculous rents charged around here.

Then on the flip side, without as much competition from the little guy, and with a lot of pressure from a pretty lively animal welfare-leaning population PetCo and PetsMarts around here work harder to maintain their standing in the community and have more money to invest in maintaining their animals properly. The PetsMart I go to is one of the larger ones that provides dog-training classes and they host adoption events for cats and dogs constantly. They do so much business that they run low on stock a lot--mostly whatever it is I happen to need, LOL!

bronzefry · Post by **bronzefry** » 12 Feb 2007, 14:58

hellocatfish wrote:Amanda, if you're still following this thread, that is, I was looking at your setup and wondering when you want to sit and look at your fish, do you pull up a chair in the center?

I live in my fishroom. I'm surrounded by tanks. I'm thinking of getting rid of the television in my room(plenty of others in the house). I find the sound of running water to be quite relaxing.

Very few floaters in the PetSmarts where I live. Sometimes it's the store manager. I know some of the local fishroom managers of both Petcos and PetSmarts. They treat the fishroom as if it were their own. They get quite incensed if they find a fish with ick, a drop of algae or a sunken belly.(It also helps that they are members of our local fish club.)
Amanda

arc200uk · Post by **arc200uk** » 12 Feb 2007, 17:31

They will do dead fish checks throughout the day. It involves netting dead fish, logging how many have died and from which tanks and chucking them into the freezer they have for dead animals. The dead fish you see in the tanks have probably died over the last hour or two. I bet some stores are just better at doing dead fish counts than others.

The worst thing is getting a fish back home and having it die the same night...happened to a cory i bought once while its friend is doing fine to this day.

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 12 Feb 2007, 20:59

Oh Larry I forgot to thank you for mentioning the Aquarium Atlas. I've either been consulting the internet or the same fish book I had when I was a kid, which was edited by Herbert Axelrod himself! I was going to do a site search for recommended books and you just got me started!

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 12 Feb 2007, 21:28

Well speaking of sick fish, the ailing Danio I have is hanging in there. He has started eating again since I got freeze dried bloodworm and Hikari micro pellets. I don't think he'll make it in the long run, but at least he will get a few good meals before he goes.

One of my Sterba is ailing. Now of the 3 that I have, one had been sick not that long ago. At one point he was sunken in looking and one day he looked so bad I almost netted him out, thinking he was dead. Then he rallied and made a good recovery and I couldn't tell any longer which one had been the sick one. But starting yesterday one has been getting more and more pale and the head spots have changed, going from Sterba-looking to Haraldschultzi. Behavior is different, too, keeps to itself more often and swims in place mostly looking at the thermometer.

I don't know what my water paramaters currently are because, running as I have been on caffeine so I can juggle a bunch of personal stuff, my hands are too jittery to handle the water sample vials! But I have been keeping up with water maintenance and the other fish seem fine & my in-tank monitors look good so I assume the parameters are fine.

I'll be heartbroken to lose another cory. Danio, too, but I'm more attached to the cories--they've become my passion in this hobby. But I don't have the luxury right now of brooding over the losses. I just have to do what I can and move on. I'm hoping with the new filter and increasing my understanding of what I'm doing that I'll be able to provide a more stable and nurturing environment for the remaining fish.

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 12 Feb 2007, 21:44

Amanda, you have a whole fish room? Wow. I'm envious. All the available space in my house where I could safely locate a tank--& more imporantly, all the good electrical outlets, are already spoken for. It was challenging just to find a place for my quarantine/hospital tank.

BTW--the reason I don't have the ailing fish in that tank is I don't know that they necessarily have something that is contagious. I don't know what they have wrong, so I can't even medicate them. I hate to subject them to the stress of relocating & isolating them when it may be futile and unnecessary. Not really sure what to do, frankly.

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 12 Feb 2007, 21:47

Hi Hellocatfish,
I'm glad the book suggestion was useful. One more piece of unsolicited advice: Please do not make your first main reference book one published by TFH(Axelrod) I strongly recommend the Aquarium Atlas, then Vol.s 2 and 3.
In the meanwhile check out TFH books from the public library. You will soon find how much more information, good at each level of knowledge of aquaristics you reach, the Atlas series contains. One thing is that none of the books can keep up with the explosion of new species introduced to the hobby and the constant name revisions for existing species. That is where the forum really is helpful because it can stay so current. The best I can say about TFH is their books tend to contain a lot of fluff, oversized print instead of being crammed with information, and inaccuracies. After that it will be easier to choose other books for your library, especially if you become more drawn to different fishes, Cichlids, Discus, Catfish and etc.
No book is perfect but some are better than others.

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 12 Feb 2007, 22:16

Oh yeah, I know, some of the fish descriptions are just anecdotes about how the author's fish was caught, and barely any info about how to take care of the fish. But it's a cute blast from the past!

About my sick catfish--duh...I think the little dude may actually be a Haraldschultzi. I got two batches of fish at different times from the same tank, marked as Sterba cories. I think they might have had some haraldschultzi mixed in. I can't imagine a fish would change his spots to that of another species just because he feels crappy. He's also looking a little less pale now.

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 12 Feb 2007, 22:26

Hellocatfish,
I raise Corydoras sterbai hundreds at a time for the regional LFS's and I can tell you that a Sterbai can pale easily enough to resemble haraldshultzi if they aren't well or stressed. They vastly outnumber haraldshutzi in the market. Haraldshultzi are usually available from more specialized sources and even though I think sterbai are the prettier of the two but because sterbai are bred commercially and haralshultzi would be wild caught, they normally have a higher sticker price.
Not impossible but not very likely that you have haraldshultzi.