injured pictus?

mr white · Post by **mr white** » 07 Feb 2007, 17:24

Hello all;
I was wondering about pictus cats - are they better in groups of threes? I currently have two and one is a might bit bigger than the other. I got him yesterday, and I've had my smaller pictus for about a month. Also, my bigger one, since coming home, has endured some injuries. At the petstore his spine got caught in the net (of course) and I was wondering if they are attached to the fins or not, because his spines, right by his fins, are not on either side. Also, one of his long barbels seems to have a bend in it, as when he swims instead of forming an arc it forms almost a point in the middle - I will try to get a photo. It's as if it were bent. I'm wondering if this affects them at all or if it will heal and become an arc again, or if I can give him anything to make it heal (for either problem, if they spine/fin thing is an issue)
thanks for your time in advance!

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 07 Feb 2007, 17:49

The number of pictus you should keep in a group is "anything but two" - they are OK on their own, but better off in a group of three or more. Five is a good number if you have a decent tank-size.

As to the injuries, that's going to heal, I had to cut a bit of fin off one of mine [because it got so caught in the net that was the only way to not have a permanently attached net on the fish] when I moved my tank, and I couldn't tell next time I caught them all (about 8 months later).

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Mats

mr white · Post by **mr white** » 07 Feb 2007, 18:15

so even the barbel will heal? because it looks like it'd be pretty easy to break off should it get in any compromising positions.

what if it did break off, how would this affect the fish and would it grow back, as good as normal?

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 07 Feb 2007, 18:40

so even the barbel will heal?

Yes indeed. It should grow back as good as new (or nearly) provided you provide lots of food and lots of water changes.

what if it did break off, how would this affect the fish

In the wild it could cause the fish to starve if it is not able to find food in murky water. However there is no problem in the aquarium, as you can make sure he gets his share.

mr white · Post by **mr white** » 07 Feb 2007, 18:44

thanks for the replies so far! they are very releiving! SO why would I need to stay on top of w/c? food is understandable. also, I think I may have to get another pictus as I have two and that isn't a good number, and I'm attached to my new one... if I have one big one and one small one, should I get a small one, a big one or a middle sized one? I'm trying to avoid an 'alpha' fish if you will. I will also have to begin weekly w/c as opposed to two week ones if I add another pictus anyhow.

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 08 Feb 2007, 09:03

SO why would I need to stay on top of w/c?

Compounds including nitrates will build up in the tank as by-products of the fish's metabolism. Nitrates are known to reduce growth rates in many fish.

Many fish are also known to release their own growth inhibitors as a reaction to being in cramped conditions, such as a small pool. This stunts them and allows them to survive for longer.

In the aquarium you will have similar conditions, so you dilute these chemicals with regular water changes.

Fresh water will help the barbel heal more quickly.

I may be wrong, but I imagine the water in Newfoundland is very good, with low levels of nitrates.

I think I may have to get another pictus as I have two and that isn't a good number, and I'm attached to my new one... if I have one big one and one small one, should I get a small one, a big one or a middle sized one?

Pictus prefer to be kept in groups. The number you can keep will depend on the size of your tank.

I don't think size of the fish is terribly important though.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 08 Feb 2007, 11:39

racoll wrote:Many fish are also known to release their own growth inhibitors as a reaction to being in cramped conditions, such as a small pool. This stunts them and allows them to survive for longer.

Is this known or just speculative? I've heard it several times, but I have the distinct feeling that this is just guesswork by non-scientists that don't realize that the natural occurrence of nitrate would have this effect without further need for "inhibitors".

I think I may have to get another pictus as I have two and that isn't a good number, and I'm attached to my new one... if I have one big one and one small one, should I get a small one, a big one or a middle sized one?
Pictus prefer to be kept in groups. The number you can keep will depend on the size of your tank.

I don't think size of the fish is terribly important though.

The reason I said that two isn't a good number is that with this particular number, the aggression over for example "the best cave" could cause the weaker of the two fish to be "bullied" by the larger one (this is perfectly normal hierarchy-building in natural populations). With more than one to "spread the bullying", it's a much better situation.

I agree with racoll that it's not very important what size the new one is, small or large, it will have the same effect. I added some small ones to my larger existing stock, and they went in find and didn't seem bothered by their larger "new friends".

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Mats

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 08 Feb 2007, 13:18

Is this known or just speculative? I've heard it several times, but I have the distinct feeling that this is just guesswork by non-scientists that don't realize that the natural occurrence of nitrate would have this effect without further need for "inhibitors".

Very good question Mats.

I have a degree in marine biology, so I'm not quite a non-scientist.

I think I remember learning this from reliable sources. I can't be certain though. I had a search through google but nothing came up.

Best not to take it as gospel until a reliable source is found.

I did find quite a lot of well researched information on nitrate toxicity though.

http://www.oscarfish.com/cms_view_article.php?aid=608

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 08 Feb 2007, 13:39

Well, you exceed my scholastic level in fish science by several levels.

Agree that the article on nitrate is very intersting!

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Mats

mr white · Post by **mr white** » 08 Feb 2007, 15:49

racoll wrote: I may be wrong, but I imagine the water in Newfoundland is very good, with low levels of nitrates.

Well, I can't really say anything about nitrates, but it's a perfect 7.0 in my town anyway, which is very convenient.

Thank you all for your help, you all certainly know quite a deal! I will let you know how everything goes. yesterday I tried feeding the pictus exclusively, but he was the only one who never ate in my tank. He would just swim right over the pellet while my little pictus would run around with one (I put in two). Also, I put in some AquaPlus because apparently this will help seal where the barbel was bent to prevent any further damage to that spot. When I first put my pictus in, my smaller pictus seemed to bite him or nip him when he came near him, but that night he was best buds with him. Which I found strange. The big one also seems to like putting his mouth on one of my clown loaches.

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 08 Feb 2007, 18:20

Try frozen bloodworms. The pictus won't resist these.

mr white · Post by **mr white** » 08 Feb 2007, 18:39

well, I tried freeze-dried bloodworms as well last night, but they float on the top, and although my pictus will occasionally swim up that way he never took any interest. is there a trick to getting them to sink?

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 08 Feb 2007, 20:19

You could try pre-soaking them for a couple of hours.

I do recommend the fresh frozen bloodworms. Almost any fish will eat these in seconds.

mr white · Post by **mr white** » 08 Feb 2007, 21:06

alas, those aren't available to me here in my town. All we have is a small PetCity. those freeze dried guys are as good as it gets for me. My food options (that I have purchased) are as follows:
freeze dried bloodworms
shrimps (the tiny ones in the omega canister, if you know what I mean)
shrimp pellets
sinking nutrafin tablets
hikari sinking tablets
algae discs
tubifex worms
edit: I also have brine shrimp

which do you think my pictus would like the most? my small one seemed to enjoy it all, but specfically the nutrafin tablet. that's pretty much all my options at the store, and I don't even bother feeding tropical flakes. (or any flakes for that matter)

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 08 Feb 2007, 22:23

I would just try a some of everything, and see what does down....

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 09 Feb 2007, 09:49

Frozen bloodworm is definitely the thing to go for if you can get it, but I also realize that if you live far out in the sticks (and my ignorant view of New Foundland would be that it's ALL "sticks"), then the availability of frozen foods may be very limited or non-existant.

In my experience pictus cats aren't particularly picky about their food - mine greedily takes Tetra Prima (aka Tetra Bits, Tetra Colour Bits or Tetra Discus (Prima)), which is a sinking granule food. They will also eat algae-wafers, but I try to avoid those as much as possible. Chopped shrimp/prawn, mussel or fish will also be fine - you can buy those in the supermarket for much less than they are in the LFS. If you follow the link where it says "articles(1)" at the bottom of my posts, you'll find an article on feeding plecos - whilst your fish aren't plecos, they will need "carnivore" food, which there are several suggestions and ideas on in the article.

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Mats

courtnee · Post by **courtnee** » 09 Feb 2007, 19:03

My pictus (proud owner of 4) love blood worms. I give them frozen and also have used freeze dried before I got the frozen. You have to soak them in a cup of tank water awhile before you put them in so they sink. My pictus cats never come to the top for food. They did when they were babies but not anymore. they know food comes to them at the bottom!

I bought my first pictus at walmart that was caught in a net and a fin messed up getting him out. He died.

At a local LFS I go to now, they gave me all four of my pictus caught by hand (which I would never do!) lol they also stress if a net is used to use a cloth one instead of a normal net. I agree with this as I have read way to many injuries to pictus with nets. I havent had to catch my guys yet but when I do I plan the bottle or glass trick, or have one of the LFS guys come over that know what they are doing catching by hand. This time is coming as I am moving mine into a 125gl this summer.

Also for pictus in groups. I have two spotted pictus and 2 four-line pictus cats. My two spotted pictus go through their times of fighting. It is not pretty seeing them fight. The little who is much smaller then the larger one was the aggressive one. He had the larger one so stressed out for a few days constantly going at him. Size does not matter obviously!

They have worked it out.

My spotted pictus are growing pretty slow. One is staying much smaller compared to the other as well. My sister as well has 2 spotted pictus she has had over a year and one is still only about 2" if that. It is TINY! Just doesnt grow, the other one has grown to about 3" and growing slow.

My four-lines are another story. They are horses! I bought Tank Boss at about the same size as my largest spotted pictus. I did not know why Tank Boss was colored different and seemed different until I learned that there are four-line pictus cats that are different then the spotted pictus.

Tank Boss in about 4mo has gone from 2" to over 4" and no signs of slowing down. That fish scares me on its growth rate. I remember this tiny little fish and now the mouth on it is huge! I dont see my four-lines very often and each time I see them I see a difference in growth!

Pranzer we bought in the first part of Dec. he was about 4" and now is over 6" he is a beast. He rarely is seen and last night he was out playing around and man he is just huge. He freaks out in his "pictus frenzy" and knocks things over in the tank and just wigs out. The tetra all go hide in a corner when he comes out. LOL

I have learned at least from watching my spotted pictus and my sisters they grow slow and really different in sizes as well. That size does not matter when it comes to wanting to argue with each other. That they do. I have never seen my four-line pictus have aggression issues with anything in the tank.

They are a stunning fish though!

mr white · Post by **mr white** » 10 Feb 2007, 15:20

is there a picture of the four-line in the cat-elog? mine are spotted. do pictus grow to 8 inches? the cat-elog says 4.7, but the LFS worker told me 8.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 12 Feb 2007, 12:25

Four-line pim is the common name or . I've submitted this as a "Common name" to P. blochi so some time in the future, you should be able to see it in the Cat-eLog "Common name" list.

P. blochi grows a fair bit larger than P. pictus. The largest of my P. pictus is around 6" total length, but the Cat-eLog shows "Standard Length", which is "without the tail", so I'm fairly sure that the size is about right in the Cat-eLog.

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Mats

courtnee · Post by **courtnee** » 13 Feb 2007, 09:18

The pictures in the cat-elog of the four-line are pretty and show a good wide range on how their looks are different.

The adult one though... pretty but very different compared to the baby you get LOL I can see with my four-lines the way they are growing how they can end up looking like that.

I tell ya... I thought I had time with a 55gl with mine to upgrade. Just tonight as my four-lines were out I told myself "bigger tank very soon!" I am on the hunt now.

My spotted pictus are still small!