Colour of my punks

MultiPunk · Post by **MultiPunk** » 11 Apr 2003, 14:08

When researching stuff on multipunctatus, every picture I come across seems to show their colour as a gold/light brown with darker spots. Mine are just juveniles, around 3", but are a dark grey with darker spots. On 2 of them the spots on the body are larger than on the head and have a distinct leopardised pattern, ie rings of spots.

So is this about right for juveniles or do I have a particular colour morph?

They were sold as multipunctatus and seem to have the correct dagger shaped humeral process.

I'm sure a photo would help but I'm a poor photographer, have a crap camera and have shy fish!! I will persist.....

Sid Guppy · Post by **Sid Guppy** » 11 Apr 2003, 15:17

I somehow think you don't have multipunctatus.....
because usually multipunctatus (along with petricola's, polli's etc) are much MORE contrastful when juvenile; wich means virulent white with very black markings. Only later on that whitish groundcolor changes into somewhat less contrasting (off-white, grey or yellow for several multipunctatus varieties, brown for polli's and greyish/ivory for petricola's).
I never saw any rings or open -leopard- spots on any Syno, except ocellifer and that one DOES have a greyish groundcoloration.
Do your multipunctatus have the usual black fins with the white edge? Because that too, is MUCH more evident/contrasting on young Syno's.

MultiPunk · Post by **MultiPunk** » 25 Apr 2003, 17:30

Finally I get some (crap) photos back and scan them, then crop and improve brightness using Photoshop and then wham - this board doesn't allow uploads. Bah!

Well, I found a picture of s.nigrita which apparently spends a lot of time in fish stores labelled as upside down catfish. This fish has a lot of features found on my multipunctatus, namely colouration, rows of spots on fins, the tail fin looks like the forked multi overlaid on the fan shaped nigrita. Head shape of multi, eyes of nigrita....guess what I've concluded?

So where do I go from here with regard to the store where I purchased these hybrids? They claim to have bought them as multis from Czecho but that's their problem rather than mine isn't it? I don't want to breed them - I wouldn't breed hybrids anyway - and I quite like them, but I've been mis-sold at the end of the day and I feel entitled to some sort of reddress - a partial refund for example. Am I entitled?

Post by **Silurus** » 25 Apr 2003, 17:33

MultiPunk, Tim (clothahump) will host the pics on his website. Read the sticky in the What is My Catfish forum for more info.
Always informative to see pics of hybrids.

MultiPunk · Post by **MultiPunk** » 25 Apr 2003, 17:36

thanks yes, I tried corydorasworld last night but his forums were in a complete mess - so the sticky had gone! I'll look again shortly in the hope the forums are back up

Post by **Silurus** » 25 Apr 2003, 17:38

Here it is. And I just checked his gallery. Seems to be up and running.

MultiPunk · Post by **MultiPunk** » 25 Apr 2003, 18:04

thanks Silurus, I'll try a bit later when I'm at home, just wasting time in the office right now!

Sid Guppy · Post by **Sid Guppy** » 25 Apr 2003, 19:47

I got another very easy to use picture server; from that one it's easy to load pics in here, and it's for free!

https://www.shutterfly.com/secure/sign_ ... terfly.com

just give a bogusname (like "sidguppy" or something, but that one is MINE

), and give a hotmail -Email adress.
I always use those "hotmailboxes for free" because some ads or spams always come with the free stuff.
AFAIK the only one who's got my true Email is Jools; we all have to trust at least ONE person, don't we?

From that on, it's dead easy, and it works flawless; upload a pic, once it's uploaded; check the "proportions"; select those, "cut", "paste"

etc etc.

you know the drill probably, if I can do it, it's simple: I'm Cap'n Caveman, using flint at the keyboard, one type finger only, but look.....

I LOOOOOVE this fish (it's not a Syno, but it's DEFINITELY a Tang!)

Post by **Dinyar** » 25 Apr 2003, 20:38

SG_Eurystomus wrote:AFAIK the only one who's got my true Email is Jools; we all have to trust at least ONE person, don't we?

Hey, you told me the only person you gave your true email address to was ME!

Post by **Silurus** » 25 Apr 2003, 20:42

Sorry to disappoint you again, Dinyar, but I am another holder of the true email address.

Post by **Dinyar** » 25 Apr 2003, 20:48

Beware the legend of the Flying Dutchman! Whoever sights the true email addy will die a horrible death! Am I glad I only got some fakes!

Dinyar

Sid Guppy · Post by **Sid Guppy** » 25 Apr 2003, 22:15

Relax, oh goading-the-goat Dinyar
you DO have the Email don't you?

I completely forgot about you silurus

How's the DNA research coming btw?

MultiPunk · Post by **MultiPunk** » 27 Apr 2003, 20:56

thanks Sid, I've succeeded with the upload to shutterfly, fingers crossed for the links below.

Post by **Silurus** » 28 Apr 2003, 10:10

(moderator hat on)
MultiPunk had some trouble with the image uploads to Tim's gallery and I fixed it. Deleted the messages exchanged that outlined the problem and I am adding this to keep the message in position.
(moderator hat off)

This one has hybrid written all over it.

Sid Guppy · Post by **Sid Guppy** » 28 Apr 2003, 11:22

Yep, and even if it isn't , it still has got nothing to do with any Tanganyikan Syno I know of.

looks like someone got creative with some Riverines. No black fins, no white edges on back or front of any fin, no true white backdrop (like multipunctatus has, certainly as juvenile or subadult).

It looks to me like a cros between nigrita (or eupterus?) and ocellifer.....

MultiPunk · Post by **MultiPunk** » 28 Apr 2003, 13:44

There are 3 pics of Ocellifer in the cat-elog and the middle one (which looks very unlike the other two by the way!) is spot on (!!) in terms of colouration and the eye size and colour. What frightens me is that it grows to 8"

The fins are remarkably similar to Nigrita in the lacey, spotted appearance.

So armed with this am I able to make a case to the retailer?

Post by **Silurus** » 28 Apr 2003, 13:49

I still think one of the Lake Tang syno species is involved in the lineage. The overall pattern and the large black stripes running along the lobes of the caudal fin are unmistakeable. There are also larger areas of black on the other fins than riverine synos.

MultiPunk · Post by **MultiPunk** » 28 Apr 2003, 20:40

thank you very much Silurus for sorting out my picture crisis!

these guys were sold to me labelled as multipunctatus, I've grown very attached to them but am I making a rod for my own back with 3 of them in a 48" tank with various cichlids? I hate to think of them at 8" a piece in there!!

Post by **Dinyar** » 28 Apr 2003, 21:46

Personally, I can't confidently say anything looking at these pictures. Silurus has commented in the past on how quickly I've claimed "hybrid", but in this case, I can't say even that. Some Tanganyika link seems plausible, because these are the only Syno species I know of that have this general color pattern, but even that's only a distant resemblance.

Any way you could get better pictures. MultiPunk?

Oh yeah, don't worry about the 8" until you have a better sense of what the fish are.

Dinyar

MultiPunk · Post by **MultiPunk** » 04 Sep 2003, 16:36

Mystery finally solved I'm sure! My synos are nigromaculatus, Boulenger, 1905

The September issue of Today's Fishkeeper magazine in the UK has the second part of a series on Tanganyikan synos and the pictures there are a very good match indeed. Distinctive features are the spine in the dorsal fine, the spot patterns on head and body (smaller on head, larger on body and grouped / leopardised in places).

There seems to be very little information on this mainly riverine species but it is confirmed as inhabiting Lake Tanganyika so I'm overall pleased to put a name to what I feared were hybrids. Can anyone point me to any sources of info other than fishbase.org?

The synos are behaving very well in my Tanganyika tank so it's just fingers crossed that they don't outgrow it!

Post by **Silurus** » 04 Sep 2003, 16:47

I do not think that your fish are S. nigromaculatus for the following reasons:
1. The spots are smaller and more numerous in S. nigromaculatus.
2. There are no contrasting areas of light and dark on the caudal fin of S. nigromaculatus.

Here is a picture of S. nigromaculatus from Boulenger:

Doesn't look like your fish.

Sid Guppy · Post by **Sid Guppy** » 04 Sep 2003, 16:47

I've seen nigromaculatus quite a few times, and the ones I saw don't look like yours....

Maybe I'm mistaken, but from what I know:
-nigromaculatus is a long, stretched Syno. Not like brichardi or so, but like njassee.
-nigromaculatus has many, many very small dark (or black) spots on a fairly light background.
-It has a fairly long headshape, big eyes, long thin whiskers, and long pointed lobes on the tailfin.
-I have NEVER seen any nigro with those "C" shaped "spots" or markings that I can see in your pix....

btw nigromaculatus has the reputation of being the "angelicus" from Tanganyika; this refers to it's very territorial character. It's also the one syno that also lives in rivers surrounding the lake, not just the lake itself. It's supposed to reach 7-8" or so, maybe bigger??

Ask Dinyar, he's got one.

Post by **Silurus** » 04 Sep 2003, 16:52

One final key feature of S. nigromaculatus I forgot to mention is that the humeral process has a number of distinct bumps that look like rounded teeth (something like in S. acanthomias, but less extreme).

Like so:

I cannot tell from your picture whether your fish has them, but I doubt so.

Post by **Rusty** » 04 Sep 2003, 19:16

SG_Eurystomus wrote:Ask Dinyar, he's got one.

I don't think he has one

Nope, your fish isn't like any nigromaculatus I've seen. Erwin's pictures don't match yours (and remember that some of his pics are of preserved material). Better pics are needed though...

Rusty

MultiPunk · Post by **MultiPunk** » 05 Sep 2003, 13:48

The main problem here is the quality of my pics but also perhaps that mine are still 3-4" juveniles and not fully grown 8" adults.
I have no problem with the above illustration from Boulenger with the sole exception of the caudal fin, mine clearly has a forked outline along with the lacey, spotted inner finnage. Is this what SG_Eurystomus means by "long pointed lobes"?
The dorsal and pectoral fins with their spines are distinctive and the humeral process seems correct to me.
As for the overall body shape there does seem to be evidence for a variation in the examples taken from rivers and still water. Riverine fish tending to be longer and flatter obviously enough. I have also read that the size of the spots varies between individuals (is it does indeed between the 3 I have) and I have seen photos of nigromaculatus which clearly exhibit the C shape from spots overlapping. The colouration of dark spots on a lighter background is again right, I would not give much credence to my photos which are far too dark to indicate the true colour of these fish.

I am still unable to take better quality shots which would help enormously but I am very satisfied with the idenitifcation based on the article in the magazine I mention. My home PC is inoperative at the moment but I will post the text of that article here next week and I would plead for more references for you experts in the meantime. It comforts me that all the references I have so far point to problems of identification with this species.

Do any of you guys see this magazine?

Post by **Silurus** » 05 Sep 2003, 14:03

mine clearly has a forked outline along with the lacey, spotted inner finnage

This is what I meant by "contrasting light and dark areas in the caudal fin". Your fish shows the light color along the principal caudal rays immediately followed by a darker stripe typical of Lake Tanganyika and larger Nilo-Sudanian synos, which makes me conclude that your fish is not S. multimaculatus.
The size and density of the spotting varies, but within certain limits (I think your fish exhibits coloration that falls outside of these limits). At any rate, most synos exhibit adult coloration by the time they reach 4".

Post by **Rusty** » 05 Sep 2003, 14:32

I'm assuming the article you speak of is Erwin Schraml's two part series on Tang synos? Bear in mind many of his pictures are of preserved material, which do not keep their color well.

Rusty

Post by **Silurus** » 05 Sep 2003, 15:49

The September issue of Today's Fishkeeper

I think he meant this article.

Post by **Rusty** » 05 Sep 2003, 16:22

Wasn't Erwin's translated into English and published in some UK magazine?

MultiPunk · Post by **MultiPunk** » 05 Sep 2003, 16:56

I'll provide the text from the article on Monday so that we're clear on the content. I should also try to get scans of the illustrations provided.

Having just looked again at my pics from 5 months ago, they really were babies then, 3". The fish are now much bigger, 5-6", and there are a greater number of smaller spots on 2, few now overlap, the 3rd has fewer spots with none overlapping. They are much lighter in colour, a grey/brown with darker brown/black spots. The spots on the fins are in clear rows, not random. There is no white on them at all though the belly is lighter and still spotted.

So, until we have more conclusive shots is the consensus that they are nigromaculatus plus A.N. Other Tang hybrid?

I have to say as far as behaviour goes they are great value synos for my 4ft Tang tank with cyps, calvus, julies and leleupi. They are out and about during the day, totally passive yet tough enough to tolerate but not ignore the territorial attacks from the cichlids. Except feeding time when they ignore all bites until their bellies are full!! They love to play together, particularly in the current from the spraybar and bubble stream from the airstone, though they usually lounge around in separate caves in the slate rockwork. I've never witnessed an attack on a cichlid, not even the juli and leleupi fry which have been a constant feature in this tank for the past couple of months.