Whiptail ID please.

saraya · Post by **saraya** » 02 Feb 2007, 09:09

I have been given 3 different ID?s for my female Whiptail. I would really appreciate a definite ID as the oldest fry are almost ready to be re-homed ? and I need to know if the fry are cross bred. Dad is Sturisoma Festivum. Here is mum.

Many thanks.

http://www.plecofanatics.com/gallery/da ... mwhip1.jpg

http://www.plecofanatics.com/gallery/da ... mwhip2.jpg

http://www.plecofanatics.com/gallery/da ... mwhip3.jpg

http://www.plecofanatics.com/gallery/da ... mwhip4.jpg

Norman · Post by **Norman** » 02 Feb 2007, 10:39

Hello Saraya,

There is no doubt that this is S.fetsivum.

best regards
Norman

Post by **Shane** » 04 Feb 2007, 05:44

Saraya,
Can you post pics of the male as well. These are not S. festivum, but appear to be the long finned sp exported from Amazonas. S. festivum is limited to the Maracaibo Basin, Venezuela and it is highly unlikely that it has ever been exported. In fact, the only photo I have seen of S. festivum appears in Galvis et al (1997) "Peces del Catatumbo" (p.97) and it clearly is not the same fish as in the pics above. The long finned Sturisoma exported from mazonas (Iquitos I believe) appears to be an undescribed sp.
-Shane

saraya · Post by **saraya** » 04 Feb 2007, 08:48

Hi Shane.

This is the only clear picture I have of dad at present. I will try and get some more. He is about 15cm with tail extensions of 5cm.

http://www.plecofanatics.com/gallery/da ... Eggs31.jpg

I don?t know if it helps in getting an ID, but these guys have spawned 4 times in just under 2 months. They lay about 45 ? 60 eggs in a tightly packed oblong or diamond formation and the eggs hatch after 7 days. Fry are just under 1cm when they hatch.
These are my eldest fry. They are now 46 days old and just under 6cm. This picture was taken at 40 days.

http://www.plecofanatics.com/gallery/data/500/1st.jpg

When these guys go to be re-homed, is it best just to label them as a Long finned Sturisoma species?

Thank you very much for your help.

Post by **Shane** » 04 Feb 2007, 10:46

Saraya,
The fish you have really do not have a trade name because they have been confused with S. festivum in the hobby for so long. S. sp "long fin" would probably be a good descriptive name until they are properly identified. Besides the general body shape and coloration, there is another big difference between the true S. festivum and S. sp "long fin." S. festivum have very long trailing filaments coming off the pectoral fins. S. sp "long fin" is a common import. It should not be that difficult for someone in the import side to let us all know where they are imported from. They certainly are not coming from Venezuela. True S. festivum could be collected in Colombia near the border and exported, but I never saw them come through the exporters in Bogota.
-Shane

saraya · Post by **saraya** » 05 Feb 2007, 14:56

Many thanks, Shane.

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 05 Feb 2007, 17:03

My six Sturisoma sp. all look like your females, same markings and finnage. I have been thinking they are S. nigirostrum as that has been the closest match I have been able to make. I believe they are an Amazonia species not from Venezuela. It is the male that is the bigger mystery to me (other than whether the specific name I have been using is correct) as at least in your photo it lacks the same pattern as the females. Is it always this way or an artifact of photography or is it just a sex difference during breeding? I usually choose to think fish are the same species when they breed successfully as they are hard enough to breed let alone to have them hybridize.
So, I am also very interested in what species these are, if known. It would be just my luck to have all females.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 05 Feb 2007, 17:36

apistomaster wrote:My six Sturisoma sp. all look like your females, same markings and finnage. I have been thinking they are S. nigirostrum as that has been the closest match I have been able to make. I believe they are an Amazonia species not from Venezuela. It is the male that is the bigger mystery to me (other than whether the specific name I have been using is correct) as at least in your photo it lacks the same pattern as the females. Is it always this way or an artifact of photography or is it just a sex difference during breeding? I usually choose to think fish are the same species when they breed successfully as they are hard enough to breed let alone to have them hybridize.
So, I am also very interested in what species these are, if known. It would be just my luck to have all females.

Generally speaking, fishes of same genus from different regions may well hybridize. There are oodles of Cichlids that will spawn with other cichlids, and several catfish species are also known to "freely" spawn with others - not involving hormone injections or other such trickery to set them off.

I'm fairly sure there are several reports of various types of Sturisoma sp. interbreeding.

--
Mats

saraya · Post by **saraya** » 05 Feb 2007, 18:12

Apistomaster,

My male does have some markings that my camera didn?t pick up ? but they are not exactly the same as the female. I have noticed that during spawning and the 7 days he spends on the eggs, he does appear darker. He also has developed whiskers during these 4 spawns that weren?t there 3 months ago. Mum also darkens in colour before laying and the golden colour on her sides looks more vibrant.
Also, I don?t know the correct name for the fins. Not the dorsal ? but the others along the body. Dad has mini extensions (filaments ?) on the end of each one - that mum doesn?t have. His tail extensions are also a good inch longer than hers.

A friend is bringing her camera over tomorrow and I?ll try and get a clear picture of him for you. You will see him at his darkest though ? as he?s going to be fanning eggs until Friday!

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 05 Feb 2007, 18:17

Hi Matt,
What you wrote is all true enough but in general don't you think hybridization tends to occur when the choice of suitable partners is restricted?
In any case, with regard to Sturisoma, it indicates to me that they are closely related, especially within shared/linked drainages. This is something I am beginning to think is the case of many of the various similar appearing Hypancistrus species as well as the Sturisoma. Much of what we are seeing may prove to be many geographical variants of the same species. At least that would explain a lot. There may be far fewer valid species than there are L-numbers currently recognized.
If so it raises the issues of breeders should do their best to maintain their breeding populations true to form but on the other hand(depending upon how strong one feels about this issue) one could get spawnings from within groups of the same species of different geographical origin. I don't mind either course of action as long as the pedigrees are passed on. I would not have a problem with localized types crossing and being sold as "aquarium strains" or at the same time, keeping and breeding "pure strains" of different geographical types. This is what I get for also being a member of AKA of and on for 39 years where the maintenance of local varieties is the rule.
In fact depite being members of the same valid species, many interbred local populations cannot be sustained beyond F3 generations. In many ways they are a more primitive group of fish than catfish.
Just thinking out loud.
Larry

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 05 Feb 2007, 18:43

Hi saraya,
I use filaments or fin extensions as interchangeable terms. They occur among many catfish the flash pleco, L204 comes to mind, for example, probably because I have 8 of them and am trying to sex them to set up subgroups for spawning attempts. The females have slightly less developed filament than the males as I understand it.
I look forward to you sharing more photos but for now I am still leaning towards them being all the same species, especially from what you just described.
Maybe we will get a more definite answer as to their species. It would be cool to be able to get some of your tank raised fish if you ever get too many to keep but I guess we are separated by some large body of water that could make that difficult. This planet might be getting flatter but it is still big.
They may turn out to be seasonal spawners. Spawning coinciding with the Amazonian rainey season, our winter in the Northern Hemisphere. Many SA cats are much easier to spawn this time of year.

saraya · Post by **saraya** » 11 Feb 2007, 12:38

I now have about 100 rescued fry.

It?s a shame you live so far away as you would be very welcome to some. These are my first 4 Pleco spawns and the thought of them going to an LFS and being bought by a novice and dumped into an un-cycled tank keeps me awake at night.

Now the last batch has hatched, dad has returned to his normal colouring. The camera isn?t the best though ? and this was all I could manage.
http://s25.photobucket.com/albums/c80/s ... dywhip.jpg

The first batch of fry have gone into a grow on tank now, and I?m very relieved to say they are moving around the tank to find food ? as that was my biggest worry.

I hope you manage to find some males soon and that your tanks get filled with fry.

flash · Post by **flash** » 11 Feb 2007, 15:42

Hi larry
i keep three festivums in my main tank one female and 2 males the female lays eggs every 10 days or so and she isnt fussy which male she spawns with.she lays around 50 to 60 eggs a time and has been doing this for well over a year.i find the best way to induce spawning is by exessive filtration and water movement.
i keep all kinds of whiptales and find they will all cross very easily ive evan had sturasomatichthys spawn with festivum and the eggs hatched fine.
cheers flash

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 11 Feb 2007, 20:05

Hi Flash,
That is sure interesting that these guys seem to have little in the way of reproductive barriers.
I have my six adult Sturisoma sp unknown but they have shown few hints of wanting to breed. None have ever grown any "beards" and I am starting to think they are all the same sex. Then again odds favor a mix of sexes and maybe I just haven't given them the correct triggers. They are all very healthy. One has a top tail filament that is very close to 2 inches long. There have been times where two sidle up to each other at a particular spot on the glass for a few days but nothing has come of it.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 12 Feb 2007, 10:30

As far as I understand in the case of speciation is that reproductive barriers only form when the species are living side by side. If there are geophysical barriers, speciation can happen without reproductive barriers. Hence, the rist of crossbreeding is greater with fish from different regions than those from the same place.

The fact that reproductive barriers are necessary when there are no barriers to physically separate the fish is quite obvious, as that would just mix back in and merge the two newly produced species.

The less obvious part is that there are no need for barriers when there are physical barriers involved, but as we all know, nature doesn't necessarily do things "more complicated than necessary".

Of course, this does NOT mean that all species that are similar and have been physically separated for some time are necessarily able to cross with other similar species.

--
Mats