L333 and L287(believe to be L399 or L400) fry dieing.

Kenneth Wong · Post by **Kenneth Wong** » 22 Jan 2007, 22:17

Does anyone have any ideas as to why my fry are dieing? They usually start dieing around the 8th or 9th day and I lose them all, 100% loss. They still have their egg sack and is not entirely absorbed.

Water parameters.

ammonia - 0
nitrite - 0
nitrate - 10ppm-15ppm
pH - 6.8 to 7.2
temp- 84 to 86
GH - 12dH to 14dH
KH - 1dH

So far I've had 4 L333 batches die, and 3 L287 batches die. They have died with the parents tanks and also in a floating basket in the main tank with flow-through.

Any thoughts would be great. Hardness issue? or lack of certain minerals? At the moment I've reduced the GH to 6dH for the next spawn

Thnks

Ken

plecoboy · Post by **plecoboy** » 23 Jan 2007, 00:08

How often are you changing water??

What is your filtration?

Kenneth Wong · Post by **Kenneth Wong** » 23 Jan 2007, 04:49

Weekly 30%-40% water change.

30 gallon tanks with Aquaclear 50, Aquaclear 70, and 2 sponge filters on each tank. Tank is Bare bottom with slate, rocks, and drift wood.

Ken

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 23 Jan 2007, 10:27

I have two suggestions:
1. According to Janne Ekström (User Janne in the forum), bare-bottom is a bad idea for breeding Loricariidae (documented in some of his breeding reports). The theory is that in a bare-bottom tank, a layer of bacteria forms on the glass, and these bacteria produce toxic waste-products that affect the fry. So my first suggestion is that the tank should have a layer of substrate, maybe half an inch thick, using fine gravel for example. This normally occurs within the first few weeks from the fry being released by the father. [Of course, you can probably also prevent this by thorough cleaning of the tank every day, but it's easier to use a substrate that can be gravel vaced once a week or so].

2. The fry may die from lack of food. Make sure they are sufficiently fed. Starvation in fry can definitely lead to death!

This is not a "guaranteed cure", but what I've gathered from reading about breeding of various Loricariidae.

--
Mats

plecoboy · Post by **plecoboy** » 23 Jan 2007, 12:20

I don't think the bare bottom set up is the problem, but I agree on the food. Try feeding them a little frozen baby brine shrimp. My 201s are in bare bottom floaters that don't sit directly in the flow stream.

plecoboy · Post by **plecoboy** » 23 Jan 2007, 12:29

I forgot about the water changes. Try scaling back. do smaller changes each day or every other. For my 33gal, I try to do 2-3 gallons each day, but it can be every two days depending on my schedule.

Kenneth Wong · Post by **Kenneth Wong** » 23 Jan 2007, 14:56

Mats,

suggestion 1 maybe a possibility but suggestion 2 does not make since. The fry are only 8 to 9 days old. The egg sack is not even absorbed.

Thanks

Ken

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 23 Jan 2007, 15:27

Kenneth Wong wrote:Mats,

suggestion 1 maybe a possibility but suggestion 2 does not make since. The fry are only 8 to 9 days old. The egg sack is not even absorbed.

Thanks

Ken

Ah, ok. I thought you meant 8-9 days of "free-swimming fry" (i.e after they've been released by dad)... Sorry for misunderstanding.

Yes, feeding shouldn't start until the egg-sack is gone (or at least very close to gone), so starvation would be very unlikely.

The other theory would be if there's something wrong with the genetics, but again it's unlikely that two different species would actually suffer the same problem around the same time.

Water changes may have something to do with it, but I'd say it's unlikely.

See if you can add some substrate and see if it still happens.

--
Mats

Yann · Post by **Yann** » 23 Jan 2007, 16:45

Hi!

Do you have the conductivity??

I find your GH rather very high compare to your KH
with a KH of 1 your GH should be around 4-5 usually

One thing I would be sure...
Do you find the fry dead or the caves are just suddenly empty after 8-9 days??
The males could be eating the fry because of stress factors

Cheers
Yann

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 23 Jan 2007, 16:50

yannfulliquet wrote:Hi!

Do you have the conductivity??

I find your GH rather very high compare to your KH
with a KH of 1 your GH should be around 4-5 usually

One thing I would be sure...
Do you find the fry dead or the caves are just suddenly empty after 8-9 days??
The males could be eating the fry because of stress factors

Cheers
Yann

Both very good points.

Also, low KH may cause sudden pH swings (yes, you've given a pH range, but have you measured the pH continously over a 24h period or taken a snapshot "when it's convenient"?).

--
Mats

Kenneth Wong · Post by **Kenneth Wong** » 23 Jan 2007, 17:31

Hi Jann and Mats,

Yes my water is unusual, Out of the tap it is around 375 to 400uS conductivity (on the pinpoint unit there is a conversion formula to convert to ppm and dH which comes out tobe 13 to 14dH) and the KH is around 1 to 2dH out of the tap( this I use the Aquarium Pharm test kit). I keep crush coral in the Aqua Clear to prevent the pH crashes and it stays fairly stable in the 6.8 to 7.2 range.

As for the fry I've taken half of a batch, the whole, batch, and left the batch in with the parents with the same result each time, all fry dead by 12 or 14 day. Some of the fry are being ejected by the dad around the 9 to 12 day. Even the ones that stay with him eventually die after about 14 days. Whether they are ejected because they were dead or because they are dieing I don't know. As for the ones I placed in a basket with a flow through system they also start dieing around the 8 or 9 day and all eventually die by around 14 days.

The tanks only have zebra danios as companions and two or three julie cories.

Thanks

Ken

newt0524 · Post by **newt0524** » 23 Jan 2007, 18:21

hey

you may want to knock down the temp just a little. i see you have it at 84-86. you may wany to try 78-80. this will increase the oxygenation and promote rapid beneficial bacteria growth. it will also promote the slime coat to form much more quickly, to protect the succeptible little guys.

hope this helps
newt

Triadtropz · Post by **Triadtropz** » 23 Jan 2007, 18:48

I would reduce the temp to 80f and add one drop of formalin per gallon..is aeration sufficient?

Jon · Post by **Jon** » 23 Jan 2007, 19:43

Water hardness is certainly not the reason, as I have had many viable spawns in veritable liquid chalk we have here coming form the tap. I would suggest scaling back on large water changes daily. Just top of the tank when it begins to evaporate, and let the fry be until the male releases them from his care.

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 23 Jan 2007, 20:02

There is validity to the bare bottom/bacterial slime layer problem. Povidiing at least a thin layer of sustrate has promoted higher survival rates for me.
It couldn't make the outcome any worse.
Edit: I have not had this problem with plecos but it has been a serious problem with survival of Corydoras fry.
Expert Corydoras breeders site the same relationship with high losses using bare bottom substrate vs atleast
a minimal sand substrate. This is where I have the most experience dealing with this problem and with raising common BN plecos.

Post by **Janne** » 23 Jan 2007, 21:37

The water parameters should not be a problem what I can see, there are two things that can cause their deads. First, the waterflow through the rairing container can be to low...dont worry to increase the flow so much that even the fry moves around a little. Second, to high bacteria pressure, if the tank has been used for a longer time you will have a very good bacteria grows in the tank and you need to clean the tank more frequently and also change more water then you do to keep the pressure down. For example, I change between 40-50% every second day in my breeding tanks because both the nitrate level and the bacteria level increase very rapidly...much faster then we think is possible.

Janne

Kenneth Wong · Post by **Kenneth Wong** » 23 Jan 2007, 22:25

Janne,

what nitrate level are you trying to maintain or achieve with that water changing routine?

The tanks they are in are only 5 to 6 months old.

Thanks for all the comments and ideas.

Ken

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 23 Jan 2007, 23:35

Sorry to intrude but the lowest nitrate levels you can acheive the better. If you have a substrate and fry present try to vacum the substrate with a hydrovac siphon with a fine mesh covering the intake to avoid sucking up the small fry. Eliminating as much of the substrate detritus with help greatly with controlling excessive bacteria growth.
I would try to keep the nitrates below 10mg/l.

Post by **Barbie** » 24 Jan 2007, 01:53

Ken and I have discussed this problem a few times. I had the same problem with my L318 fry last year. They'd just finished absorbing their yolk sac and they would steadily all drop dead over a period of 3 or 4 days. I tried taking the fry and putting them in a flow through container the same as I've raised hundreds of zebras and queen arabesques in. I tried lower temps, higher temps, RO water, an assortment of foods, you name it. I moved them into tanks with queen arabesque fry to see if there was just some invisible something they weren't getting. The L260 would be fine, the L318 would continue to die.

A few different people that I trust have had this trouble with just select Hypancistrus here and there. I'd love to nail down what causes it. Unfortunately I lost my male L318 so I no longer have that headache to try to figure out personally ;).

Wish I was more help Ken, and I hate to think I'm shooting down what solutions might come, but I was doing daily water changes at one point with water under 100ppm hardness, almost 0 nitrates and it made absolutely no difference. The tank could be spotless, or overgrown. I did raise out 6 or 8 of the stupid things over the year I worked with them, but I lost literally hundreds. It was very frustrating.

Barbie

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 24 Jan 2007, 02:15

I have had similar problems with my C. sterbai. Most spawns end with only a few % of survivors while others are fine. No real distinctive factors have emerged to indicate what the problem is.

Kenneth Wong · Post by **Kenneth Wong** » 24 Jan 2007, 02:51

Well,

Thank you everyone for your ideas and suggestions.

I will now crawl back into my fish room and continue with more experiments and hope for some success.

Ken