HELP - Sick/crazy Chocolate Raphael Talking Catfish - HELP

smoothdemon · Post by **smoothdemon** » 22 Jan 2007, 08:55

I have a very frustrating problem with my poor raphael talking catfish. He is about 4 yrs old and has been very healthy until recently.

he just got over a major bout of ich (which he got from a few new tetras, which I immediately removed when i noticed they had ich, though the catfish still contracted it a few days later) I treated the ich with increased water temperature and adding salt. After 10 days the ich was gone, i changed the water to fresh over a few more days. i noticed his long whiskers shriveled up a bit (due to the salt maybe?) anywhow a few days after this, he started going crazy.

By crazy i mean - darting from one side of the tank to the other, to the top, to the bottom, crashing into everything, barrel rolling, curling his tail really hard from side to side, rapid gill movement... then he would stop, and start again, and stop etc. It is really painful to watch. I gave him a few days to see if this behavior would go away, but it hasn't. Some poeple have said it is some sort of internal parasite (he shows no sign of any external problems).

I am at a loss of how to treat this. any suggestions?

all water parameters are fine. i can provide details but i can assure they aren't the cause of his dilemma, unless it had to do with going from fresh to salty to fresh.

aquaholic · Post by **aquaholic** » 22 Jan 2007, 13:11

weeellll if your very confident your ammonia and nitrite are zero and you simply have no idea then I would do a large water change or perhaps two half changes a day apart. If its a big water change then ideally the new water from another established tank.

Could just be the white spot irritating it though? Rapaels are armoured so the spots would be under the plates on skin which you cant see. Thats my best guess.

smoothdemon · Post by **smoothdemon** » 23 Jan 2007, 06:28

thanks for the reply

I would have to say this is the weirdest thing i've seen. by white spot you mean ich? I am pretty sure it is all gone. he was covered with white spots from dec 28 to han 5. by the 6th all spots were gone. i am convinced he either has something in his gills, brain, or is just damaged from the salt and heat treatment i gave him for the ich...

i am bathing him every day in Bifuran+ per recommendations of LFS. i don't know if its helping.. he still thrashes, and convulses daily about 2-3 times an hour... it is very frustrating

grokefish · Post by **grokefish** » 23 Jan 2007, 11:45

Bathing him ecery day is just going to piss him off more.
I had some dwarf cichlids that did this it was an internal bacterial infection.

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 23 Jan 2007, 17:47

How much salt did you add, and what is the volume of the tank?

Large changes in salinity could easily account for the distressed behaviour.

Post by **Marc van Arc** » 23 Jan 2007, 18:01

smoothdemon wrote:i noticed his long whiskers shriveled up a bit (due to the salt maybe?) anywhow a few days after this, he started going crazy.

The shrivelled whiskers combined with this uncontrolled swimming behaviour indicate a bacterial infection ime.
I've seen this several times (alas) and the ending was not always happy. Dorads that can be seen during the day need close attention, that's what I've learned the hard way.
So get yourself a proper medicin against bacterial infection and make the best of it. Good luck.

smoothdemon · Post by **smoothdemon** » 23 Jan 2007, 21:24

He is 3 inches long and lives in a 10 gallon tank with some plants and driftwood, ramshorn snails, and a betta.

I added 2.5 tablespoons over 3 days along with increasing the temperature to 90 degrees and darkness. It sounds extrene, but he was extremely covered in ich. This treatment got rid of the ich within a few days. i returned the water to 78 degrees and sailinity to nearly zero over a few more days ending on January 10th. Then his erratic behavior started...

I will try to put him on antibiotics and see how it goes, he seems to be getting worse and having more frequent and violent spasms.

smoothdemon · Post by **smoothdemon** » 25 Jan 2007, 08:19

UPDATE

First off I would like to thank grokefish and marc van arc for helping identify the problem, no LFS person was able to offer any correct advise and many people in other forums either.

So 2 days ago I purchased Mardells Tetracycline Tablets. Its a week long treatment, so I removed the beta from the catfish tank and temporarily put him in a floating breeder box in my 29 gallon tank. I dropped in the first tablet to treat my poor sick catfish and watched it fizz away. About 3 hours later I came to check on him and I don't know how fast antibiotics usually work, but he was at the bottom of the tank, relaxed and not twitching. Usually he was in a semi-paralyzed curled state and would thrash every so often. I watched him for a good while and he didn't have any major episodes so i went to bed hopeful.

2 days later (today) he has had 2 treatments and he looks remarkably better. he is slowly swimming around the bottom of the tank, reacting to light (he doesn't like it and while sick didn't care if you shined a light directly in his face) he is relaxed, no tense tail fin or twitching, and surprisingly his curled up / shriveled whiskers have relaxed as well and he is feeling around with them again.

We will see how the next 5 days pan out, but for now it seems optimistic.

Thanks again all - i will update when the treatment is over.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 25 Jan 2007, 10:16

Just one thing to beware of: Most of the antibacterial treatments are also lethal for your "good bacteria" in the filter, so watch for ammonia and nitrite in the water as time goes on. [And don't trust the booklet that says that it's completely safe to your filter - they are not ALWAYS right on that one].

--
Mats

Post by **Marc van Arc** » 25 Jan 2007, 16:26

smoothdemon wrote:he has had 2 treatments and he looks remarkably better. he is slowly swimming around the bottom of the tank, reacting to light (he doesn't like it and while sick didn't care if you shined a light directly in his face) he is relaxed, no tense tail fin or twitching, and surprisingly his curled up / shriveled whiskers have relaxed as well and he is feeling around with them again.

Messages like this make me very happy. Thanks for taking good care of your fish.

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 25 Jan 2007, 19:34

I suspect that both ich and bacterial infections caused the behavior. I would not have subjected it to the salt treatment but I would suggest prolonging treatment for ich beyond the usually recommended length. It is slow to cure in armored cats of all kinds and the infection is not easily seen on the skin but can still be affecting the gills. Malachite green does little harm to either fish or filter so to extend treatment with it may prevent a rebound of the ich. Ich caused wounds open the door to secondary bacterial infections. I have often had to treat for ich twice as long as I would have for Tetras. Two weeks should do it but continue with water changes both to maintain water quality and to get rid of the salt. Tetracycline is no longer very effective for fish diseases at least compared to my experiences using it 30-40 years ago. It has been overused and abused too long. Try one of the others that don't break down into a foamy brown mess. I find it impairs respiration also. My favorite antibiotic is chloramphenicol but it is no longer available in the USA excet in injectable ampules instead of 250mg water soluble capsules. It used to save thousands of newly imported cardinals for me when I had a fish shop in the early '70's.

Post by **Marc van Arc** » 25 Jan 2007, 21:53

apistomaster wrote: Ich caused wounds open the door to secondary bacterial infections.

Larry,
I don't want to be a wise guy, but imo it's the other way round: bacterial infections weaken the fish thus giving way to ich, which makes the latter a secundary disease.

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 25 Jan 2007, 22:35

Hi Marc it can go either way. But surely you have had perfectly healthy fish come down with ich after having been chilled. Once the protective layer of the skin becomes damaged bacteria frequently cause secondary infections.
This is very well documented in the aquarium literature.

smoothdemon · Post by **smoothdemon** » 27 Jan 2007, 01:41

What is an effective easy to find antibiotic for internal bacterial infections?

Post by **Marc van Arc** » 27 Jan 2007, 09:40

apistomaster wrote:But surely you have had perfectly healthy fish come down with ich after having been chilled.

Hi Larry,
That's my point. The ich-parasite is always present in a tank, but as long as the fishes are healthy it can't manifest. When something goes "wrong" in the tank - bacteria, worse water quality, sudden temperature drops etc. - that weakens the fishes, only then the ich pops up.
Imo you can't just have ich. It indicates that something else is wrong.

smoothdemon · Post by **smoothdemon** » 28 Jan 2007, 02:51

Update

I recently was able to inspect my catfish while his underside was facing the glass. His behavior is fine, he is calm, and breathing normally, eating occassionally. I noticed that his belly / stomach is abnormally bloated and the skin color in that area has turned from a brown with small white spots to a huge white patch.

Any ideas? shuold i just wait and see what happens?

Post by **Marc van Arc** » 28 Jan 2007, 10:05

smoothdemon wrote:Any ideas? shuold i just wait and see what happens?

Yes. White is a good colour. I would have been worried if you had said the belly had red spots or a red colour. The fact that the belly is swollen may just be food; these fish can eat a lot. Also the behaviour of the fish is good, which means it is recovering.
So,don't use medication right now. If things get worse - hopefully not - update here asap and we'll try to help you out.

HELP - Sick/crazy Chocolate Raphael Talking Catfish - HELP

HELP - Sick/crazy Chocolate Raphael Talking Catfish - HELP

Re: HELP - Sick/crazy Chocolate Raphael Talking Catfish - HE