Just before I buy...

[racoll]

The reason i say no live bearers is that they prefer harder and more alkaline water than all the other fish you want to put in.

Unfortunately thats the only type of water you get in south east england.

I agree that if you want to spawn these fish then you may need soft acidic water.

However just to keep fish that were tank bred in the far east, or the Czech Republic, and then held for weeks at the LFS (in local tapwater) is fine.

I really don't believe it is necessary to provide "bread and butter" tropical fish such as neon tetras and

Corydoras

with soft acid water.

Mats, you have similar water? I assume your fish are all healthy?

I look after my father's tank and we use neat (very hard) tapwater in that one. Some of the congo tetras are over ten years old, and the clown loach and talking catfish are perhaps 15 years old. All these fish come from soft water habitats. There are also some wild caught species such as Rineloricaria, Hassar & Otocinclus in there too. The Otocinclus are even gravid (I can see the little yellow eggs). I am sure they are all as happy as they can be.

I think it is much more important to provide the correct temp, substrate and diet. Providing a natural tank with dim lighting, tea stained water, bogwood, sand and some live plants will be enough to keep these fish happy.

[MatsP]

The reason i say no live bearers is that they prefer harder and more alkaline water than all the other fish you want to put in.

Unfortunately thats the only type of water you get in south east england.

Indeed it is, unless you start using Reverse Osmosis (and to do that is an outlay of at least as much as the tank in this case costs, or an almost weekly visit to the LFS for a "top-up" of RO water at some cost - I haven't really asked what the price is, but a basic RO system will set you back around 60 pounds minimum, and then you have to buy something to store the water too).

I agree that if you want to spawn these fish then you may need soft acidic water.

However just to keep fish that were tank bred in the far east, or the Czech Republic, and then held for weeks at the LFS (in local tapwater) is fine.

I really don't believe it is necessary to provide "bread and butter" tropical fish such as neon tetras and

Corydoras

with soft acid water.

Mats, you have similar water? I assume your fish are all healthy?

I live about 10 miles from Woking, and until about three weeks ago, I didn't have an RO system, and my fish have generally been healthy and happy, and the cases of bad health have been related more to the fact that even tho' I know what to do, I don't always do what I tell others to do... Bad water-changing regimes, no matter what source the water is, will kill fish.

I had

Corydoras sterbai

spawn in my tank (although no fry, which I wouldn't attribute to water conditions, but rather the simple fact that there are 30-odd other fish in the tank, most of which will see Corydoras eggs as a nice snack).

Aside from some "experimental additions", the My Cats list does list the fish that I've got, most of which "prefer soft water", and many are not Asian/Eastern european bred, but wild-caught too. (Pim pictus x 5, Peckoltia vittata, Gold nugget for example).

I look after my father's tank and we use neat (very hard) tapwater in that one. Some of the congo tetras are over ten years old, and the clown loach and talking catfish are perhaps 15 years old. All these fish come from soft water habitats. There are also some wild caught species such as Rineloricaria, Hassar & Otocinclus in there too. The Otocinclus are even gravid (I can see the little yellow eggs). I am sure they are all as happy as they can be.

I think it is much more important to provide the correct temp, substrate and diet. Providing a natural tank with dim lighting, tea stained water, bogwood, sand and some live plants will be enough to keep these fish happy.

I couldn't agree more. Good care is more important than the pH and such. Of course, for REALLY good conditions, you want to try to replicate something close to the conditions the fish live under in nature, but some of the common fish in the trade haven't ever seen a river even on a picture-card...

--
Mats

[Kostas]

Of course, for REALLY good conditions, you want to try to replicate something close to the conditions the fish live under in nature

Thats exactly my point.Fish are always better in water close to what they live in nature and thats what we should try our best to provide.Of course,as you said,if that is not coupled by a good water changing routine,correct water temprature and diet,its nothing by itself.But providing the other conditions are met,its good to meet this too I always try to do that and i recomend it to everyone.If he wants,he follows that,if he doesnt want to follow it,he doesnt.Its just like every other advise we give here.If he wants, he follows it and i dont think i recomended something wrong
Again,i never said that the above combination will not work.I just said that its limiting as you wont be able to provide the soft water fish with the soft water they prefer if at some time you wish to do it and so i dont recomend it...

Kind regards,
Konstantinos

[MatsP]

Kostas,

I'm not disagreeing with you, but you have to remember also that giving advice requires that you consider who you give advice to. Take for example a rally-driver saying "just go in hard on the gas hard and steer opposite" to a novice driver [this is the scene from the "Cars" movie]. That's not going to end well. A skilled driver, yes, but a novice won't have enough skill to understand this advice and use it correctly.

So, in this case, yes, you're giving good advice as a general rule, but to someone who is starting his first fish-tank. Adjusting water for hardness is not beginner stuff (at least not if the adjustment needs to be DOWN), because it requires expensive purchases (either buying an RO unit or buying RO water produced by someone else). Using (dechlorinated) tap-water is MUCH easier, and as long as the species wanted isn't a particularly well-known sensitive-to-hard-water, I would suggest that hard water doesn't harm the fish.

And as I said, I have until very recently kept a wide variety of wild-caught and captive bred (cat)fish in local tapwater with no problems.

So unless toplecornottoplec has already switched off and gone to some other forum, my suggestion is to use water just as it comes out of the tap, mix to get the right temperature, add some dechlorinator (StressCoat is my favourite, but other brands are available and work too).

--
Mats

[apistomaster]

I have to agree that in an ideal world one would provide exactly the same water conditions that our fish evolved in but as a practical matter most fish with a few exceptions adapt well to the water we have from the tap.
I have to accomodate most Characins to soft acid water as well as Dicrossus filamentosus to their natural water conditions. On the other hand I have raised many hundreds of F1 discus from wild caught fish in water with 240mg/l and pH of 7.5 without any problems.
I have nearly 1000 Corydoras sterbai fry I have bred in my present tap water which is 110mg/l and pH 7.4 as well as Mollies, Endlers, hundreds of BN plecos and discus
I think you overemphasize the importance of matching the exact water chemistry of these fishes native waters when it comes to keeping them in captivity.
Water quality trumps chemistry the vast majority of the time and most species.

[Kostas]

Ok,Mats,thanks for the advice but the fact is i didnt told him to keep his fishes in soft water,i know this can be difficult and dangerous when you are a begginer.I just told him that by choosing to keep livebearers along with the other fish,he wont be able to lower the ph if at any time he wishes to

[MatsP]

Ok,Mats,thanks for the advice but the fact is i didnt told him to keep his fishes in soft water,i know this can be difficult and dangerous when you are a begginer.I just told him that by choosing to keep livebearers along with the other fish,he wont be able to lower the ph if at any time he wishes to

Some live-bearers may need hard water, but I also kept several kinds of live-bearers in Sweden many years ago, and with a few exceptions, they fared well in our soft water that we have around Stockholm. So I don't think it's a major issue, but of course, there are SOME live-bearers that are unsuitable for a soft-water setup.

Another aspect of live-bearers is of course "what to do with the off-spring". Most shops will take fry or juveniles, but the breeding rate of many live-bearers is quite rapid, so it can easily become a bit of an issue...

--
Mats

[apistomaster]

Livebearer fry: Nothing a few wild angels can't take care of

[toplecornottoplec]

Kostas,


So unless toplecornottoplec has already switched off and gone to some other forum, my suggestion is to use water just as it comes out of the tap, mix to get the right temperature, add some dechlorinator (StressCoat is my favourite, but other brands are available and work too).

--
Mats

Cant get rid of me that easily!
I appreciate and take on all the points that have been made, most helpful website Ive been on - most people get bored of the same beginner questions but everyone had been so helpful!

[apistomaster]

I think that fact that we were all beginners and have had suffered costly and disheartening setbacks makes most of us wish to spare some of that pain for new fish keepers. The other thing is sincerity. You have come across as one with an open mind and expressed the desire to do the best you can with your fish.
There are a few who seem to be just playing us and that does not generate much care on the part of experienced forum members. The more dedicated members and free exchange of experiences benefits us all.