Tanganyikan Community Tank

Post by **Dinyar** » 22 Apr 2003, 20:23

Synopetri,

Actually, this is Dinyar AND Rusty's tank, Rusty being Dinyar's son. It is OUR tank in the sense that I do most of the work, while Rusty gets most of the bragging rights. I quite empathize with Boulengerochromis microlepis.

SG_Eurystomus wrote:a VERY nice tank, btw!
Can you give some details; tanksize, specieslist, number of fishes per species, etc
the whole package, to satisfy my drooling demand of knowledge, you know

Rusty has already answered most of your questions.

Frankly, Sid, I'm not yet satisfied with this tank. The original design didn't work out (the plants got eaten), and we are still trying to find a new arrangement that works.

As you can see, there are some non-Tang Synos in here, simply because our riverine Syno tank is overcrowded. However, they do fine in here. pH is only 7.8.

Since this picture was taken 7-8 months ago, the tank looks a bit different. The Ctenochromis quickly mowed down all the Vals, together with every other plant we tried putting in there. (Had I known this would have happened, I wouldn't have bought them, but it's too late for regrets now!). So now we have no plants and a lot more rock. I would like to add more rock, but nice rocks are expensive, so it will take time to build out.

All the fish get along fine. Though Sid is right in saying that P. typus is a somewhat delicate catfish, they are often roaming around the tank and seem to get their fair share of the food. The only fish we are a bit concerned about are the two spiney eels. They were looking skinnier, so we have removed them temporarily for a "power feeding". Once they get nice and fat, we'll return them to the community.

Dinyar

Sid Guppy · Post by **Sid Guppy** » 22 Apr 2003, 21:00

AHA!
so NOW I know where I've seen that particular list before

Still looks like a fine tank, before.
And it's quite a list of Syno's; there are several wich I've rarely seen alive on it.
A daring plan (or as Blackadder might say: "I've got a CUNNING plan"?) keeping all those syno's in one tank; but being Syno-crazy is obviously DNA related, I guess??

good thing I haven't got any kids, they'd probably take off with the Mochokiella's....

And I'm certainly familiar with running other people's tanks too....duh!

Post by **Dinyar** » 23 Apr 2003, 00:31

Here's a detail of the tank today.

SynoPetri · Post by **SynoPetri** » 23 Apr 2003, 09:17

Nice pic. S. petricola and S. polli, am I right? What is the yellow c*****d above the two?

Refering to your first pic, you said that I shouldn't put a root into an tanganyikan tank but I can see a root in your tank. Why that?

Post by **Rusty** » 23 Apr 2003, 13:49

Georg,

The orange cÃ®chlids in the picture are Altolamprologus compressiceps. The other cÃ®chlids are the Ctenochromis horei. That is a petricola, but the fish under it is a dhonti/tanganaicae (I can't tell from here). If you look very carefully, you can see a female polli in the top left corner, and S. angelicus barbels sticking out in the bottom left corner.

The root doesn't really pose many problems for us. We've got loads of buffering capacity in there (the substrate is high in calcium, among other things) and the pH/hardness doesn't fluctuate unless we want it to

In a smaller tank, it may be a problem, but the way to find out is to experiment!

Rusty

Sid Guppy · Post by **Sid Guppy** » 23 Apr 2003, 15:05

SynoPetri, there are some realy realistic looking imitation rootsworks for sale, these days.

Buffering the pH is a good trick, to avoid a pH drop.
There are however other substances that can leak out of real wood, and some Tangs can be sensitive to them.
But Syno's as well as most catfishes, Altolamprologus and especially Ctenochromis shouldn't be bothered by those substances, since all those species are both very strong and often dwell near rivermouths and swamps on the edges of the lake.
They're adapted to waterchanges, much more than say; Goby-cichlids, Tropheus and Ectodinae (the famous Featherfins and Xenotilapine cichlids of the lake, wich outclass most of the others on sheer beauty and stunning displays). Tropheus can get trouble from wood as well, because they're evolved to graze rocks, but their intestines aren't suitable for digesting wood, like those of Panaque.

I lost my Goby's (Eretmodus cyanostictus ) on a bad combination of both wood and the wrong food, before I knew this.

If you like wood in a Tangtank, use lots of buffering stuff, either in the filter (crushed shells and the like, the same they use for Reeftank filters); the substrate, the rocks or all three.
A big tank helps indeed, and hard wood leaks less than soft (Mopani for example is better than bogwood). Or get one of them nice imitation roots and avoid the whole issue!

SynoPetri · Post by **SynoPetri** » 23 Apr 2003, 15:42

Thanks SG_Eurystomus, thanks Rusty. You said that the Syno in the top left corner is a polli and the one unter the petricola is a dhonti/tanganaicae. But how can you be sure? The only difference I see is that the one in the top left corner maybe has bigger spots.

BTW, if I'm allowed to ask I would know how old you all are and what your name in the world outside of PlanetCatfish is!

My name is as you already know Georg and I'm 18 years old.

Post by **Rusty** » 24 Apr 2003, 18:01

After a while looking at these fish, it sort of comes to you. Of course, I still can't tell between dhonti and tanganaicae!

My name in the outside world is, you guessed it, Rusty. I'll leave you to guess my age

Rusty

Sid Guppy · Post by **Sid Guppy** » 24 Apr 2003, 18:36

AFAIK these two are really hard to distinguish, until they start growing that is, of course.

According to the pics and from what I've seen myself (they're available here as by-catch! but I haven't got the nerve yet, to buy such whopping big catfishes....)
S tanganicae has a more even pattern of many relatively small spots, dhonti has a "horseface", an irregular pattern of spots (wich is supposed to disappear, but I never saw a true 45 cm big adult in my life....) and overall more black in the fins.

They have different teeth too, but to see this, you have to pick them up by hand. The LFS won't like customers too much who handle their fish again and again....

The only time I got that privilege was when I spotted a male polli, and I wanted to be 100% sure it was the same species as my adults at home. So I asked to pick out, this particular fish and if I might shine on his teeth with a flashlight.
The girl at the LFS (daughter of the owner) knows me, but there were some customers who looked really weird at me; standing there with a squeaking brown monster in hand, flashlight between the teeth, shining in the fishes' mouth.

It worked, though. I had only one male polli and three females, now I got two males, and they look like carbon copies.

Post by **Silurus** » 24 Apr 2003, 18:49

The other way to tell dhonti and tanganaicae apart is to look at the shape of the humeral process.

Sid Guppy · Post by **Sid Guppy** » 24 Apr 2003, 18:54

I should have thought of that....
it's the "fingerprint" of Synodontis.......

You know what I would REALLY like?
A whole list of drawings of all the humeral processes of all Syno's, with their correct names written besides the drawings. It would be sort of a "determination-tab" for Synodontis!
hint hint

does something like that exist?

Post by **Silurus** » 24 Apr 2003, 18:56

Yes, Poll's Synodontis revision has something like that. Photos of all the humeral processes at the back of the book. Unfortunately, this does not cover species described after 1971.

Post by **Dinyar** » 24 Apr 2003, 19:59

Personally, I believe too much is made of the concept that the humeral process is an infalliblly distinctive figerprint for IDing Synodontis. For one thing, at least in many Tang Synos and I suspect in other Synos also, the shape of the humeral process changes as the fish matures. Second, it seems that different regional populations exhibit minor but significant differences in the shape of the humeral process.

Are these all different species? I'd like to know the answer to that question but I don't (yet). Clearly, there are a bunch of different, unidentified species in the flock, characterized by only subtle differences from the described ones, and this makes the picture much more confusing (or at least it confuses me). For example, Erwin Schraml is of the opinion that there is more than one species that is lumped under S. tanganaicae, and argues that S. lacustricolus Poll may be diferent from S. tanganaicae Borodin, and thus still valid.

One curious feature of endemic Tang Synos is that they all look very similar as juveniles but quite different as adults. A corollary of this observation is that juvenile and adult forms are different. This has fooled even experienced ichthyologists. For example, Matthes described a "S. irascae" which turned out to be the juvenile S. dhonti.

So... maybe (1) humeral processes distinctively identify Tang Synos but we are misled because there are more species out there than we recognize, disrupting the unique humerus<=>species mapping, (2) the mapping is not truly distinctive, or (3) both of the above.

Dinyar

Post by **Dinyar** » 24 Apr 2003, 20:12

Two somewhat related follow-up questions:

1) Do all catfish have a humeral process? If not, which families or super-families do?

2) The following four species of African fishes have "dhonti" as their species name (according to FB).

Synodontis dhonti, Boulenger, 1917
Clarias dhonti, Boulenger, 1920
Labeo dhonti, Boulenger, 1919
Telmatochromis dhonti, Boulenger, 1919

What is the etymology of this name? A "Monsieur Dhont"?

Dinyar

Post by **Dinyar** » 24 Apr 2003, 20:18

Silurus wrote:The other way to tell dhonti and tanganaicae apart is to look at the shape of the humeral process.

Well, when you visit us you can tell me which is which, or if I in fact have only one of the two species. Despite some superficial differences, I conclude that I have only 5 S. dhonti.

In fact, I have managed to pickle three fish, two of which are ostensibly S. dhonti and one of which is ostensibly S. tanganaicae (the importer killed them, not me). At first, I thought they were different. Now I think these too are all one species.

Want to take a look?

Dinyar

DeLBoD · Post by **DeLBoD** » 24 Apr 2003, 20:39

Show us yer pickles then!1. â??snig snigâ?

Post by **Silurus** » 24 Apr 2003, 20:43

Do all catfish have a humeral process? If not, which families or super-families do?

I believe all catfishes have a process on the cleithrum (pectoral girdle), but I need to confirm this. It is variously developed amongst catfish groups and is very well-developed in doradoid catfishes. The shape is a useful diagnostic character only if you take into account variation. In bagrids and akysids, it is sometimes useful, but minor variation exists among individuals. One can also expect minor changes in shape as the ossification of the process proceeds during growth.

What is the etymology of this name?

Those were named after M.G. Dhont-De Bie, who accompanied L. Stappers (Boulenger also named fishes after him) on his expeditions.

Post by **Silurus** » 24 Apr 2003, 21:09

Want to take a look?

I dion't know if it's a good idea to contemplate changing horses in midstream at this point and start focussing on African catfishes instead. There are just too many catfishes for one lifetime of study.
I will have a look and I will offer you my opinion. But don't take that as the last word on anything.

Sid Guppy · Post by **Sid Guppy** » 25 Apr 2003, 07:25

Heck, I might as well invest in this stuff, since I'm getting halfway there....
where do they teach ichthyology? (not in this wee bit of country, they don't; or I would be up to the ears in catfishes already)

Post by **Dinyar** » 25 Apr 2003, 20:15

Silurus wrote: I don't know if it's a good idea to contemplate changing horses in midstream at this point and start focussing on African catfishes instead. There are just too many catfishes for one lifetime of study.

We have high expectations of you Silurus! Boulenger didn't even limit himself to fish, and we want you to do better than Boulenger. Mind you, in those days there were more unidentified species!

Dinyar

Post by **Dinyar** » 25 Apr 2003, 20:24

SG_Eurystomus wrote:Heck, I might as well invest in this stuff, since I'm getting halfway there....
where do they teach ichthyology? (not in this wee bit of country, they don't; or I would be up to the ears in catfishes already)

C'mon, SG! Your wee bitty country has produced many great ichthyologists, Pieter Bleeker, for example, or IssbrÃ¼cker and Nijssen more recently. It also has many fine centers of ichthyological research. Silurus was just in Holland, and he'll be able to tell you a lot more.

Just drop his name and they'll probably let you in to the graduate program of your choice!

Then of course there are the Belgians, the leading students of African ichthyology. Another wee bitty country a short bike ride away.

Dinyar

PS: BTW, careful with your use of "Heck" in this forum. Easily confused with "Heok"! Thou shalt not use the forum moderator's name in vain!

Sid Guppy · Post by **Sid Guppy** » 25 Apr 2003, 20:26

Here's another fish that sort of "has to be in a Tanganyika catfishtank".....

funny how it manages to look like a huge Pim? this is a WEE little catfish

they're impossible to fix with a camera (always moving), not as bad as my polli's (they hate the flash), or the Amphilius.....you wouldn't believe the amount of crappy pics I got of those, I spare you my "best", wich is rather the least worst in a long sad history of rotten pix.

MAN am I glad I went digital!

Post by **Dinyar** » 25 Apr 2003, 20:30

Didn't know they have octopii in Lake Tanganyikii!

Dinyar

Sid Guppy · Post by **Sid Guppy** » 25 Apr 2003, 22:18

Don't insult my Feather Whiskers, or they might ask their big cousins to get MIDEAVAL on you.....

SynoPetri · Post by **SynoPetri** » 26 Apr 2003, 19:58

What is better to buffer the pH, sand or gravel?

Ron · Post by **Ron** » 27 Apr 2003, 00:57

SynoPetri wrote:What is better to buffer the pH, sand or gravel?

Well it obviously depends on what it is made of. In theory it would be better to use sand because there is more surface area touching the water. To obtain this though the water needs to be flowing through the substrate. Therefore you are better off putting some of it in your filter in a container to achieve the water flow through it. If the subtrate is just sitting on the bottom there is really no water flow through it and therefore there is a low benifit.

Post by **Dinyar** » 27 Apr 2003, 03:23

SynoPetri wrote:What is better to buffer the pH, sand or gravel?

We use a calciferous gravel, but if we could do our Tanganyika tank over from the beginning, I think we'd use sand instead.

See this article: http://www.hagblomfoto.com/article_sand.htm

Dinyar

Sid Guppy · Post by **Sid Guppy** » 28 Apr 2003, 11:17

Personal experience from Sid:
Tried to use about everything, but still the best substrate with a lightyear ahead on everything else is still plain old RIVERSAND.
preferably put through a sieve to get the gravel out.
-it's 'course" enough to avoid clotting or starting gaspockets (unlike "silversand" (the stuff you can put in the parrot- or canarycage), beachsand or playsand wich will form a 'crust' and loads of anaeroob rotting processes)
-it's rounded by erosion, so no harm comes to fishmouths and -whiskers (coralsand or "breakersand; wich is made by crushing, or black basaltsplit can all be pretty sharp and harmful to cats and digging fish)...
-it's easily washed, there's always a bit of clay, but usually you can wash it out, fairly fast (try this with PLAYSAND and you'll know what I mean)
-it doesn't add or draw something from the water; so you have all control on pH, KH, GH etc in your hands without having to strip the tank!
-it's dirtcheap!

The way I use to buffer is in the filter (I got a whopping big one; about 100 liter) crushed shells, the same ones you can feed the chickens to make them lay properly shelled eggs. This is also dirtcheap, but you need to wash it, it contains a load of dust.
And after a big waterchange I add soda (NaHCO3), crushed blackboard crayons (CaCO3) and Gympowder: Mg2CO3. And a bit of MAERL, this stuff you can buy for the gardenpond, for boosting up pH and KH.

SynoPetri · Post by **SynoPetri** » 03 May 2003, 11:17

Tanks SG for your advices. They helped me a lot.

Dinyar, you said that in your 40 gallon tank with S. petricola, multipunctatus and polli, there were a lot of rocks in it. I'm just trying how I should place the rocks in my future tank but I don't know exactly how. It is not very easy to build caves. BTW is it important that there are a lot of hiding places, I maen one for each Syno? You know that 40 gallons are not very big and so I can' put in too much rocks. What do you think?

Post by **Dinyar** » 03 May 2003, 15:47

Here are some pix for your reference. I took them just a few minutes ago.

This pile of rocks is actually in one corner of my 125 gallon tank, but it could just as easily be set up in a 40 gallon. It's made of a combination of "lumpy" calciferous rocks for most of the vertical support, and flat "lace rock" for some of the horizontal elements. It forms a very intricate nexus of nooks and crannies. This is further supplemented by a few pieces of PVC pipe hidden inside the rocks. I don't like the look of PVC pipe, but by hiding it behind the rocks, I don't have to see it.

Let's see if you can count and identify all the fish in the first picture! I count at least 25, not including two that are chopped off on the right.

Dinyar