Am I doing this correctly?

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 01 Jan 2007, 23:41

There are so many "miracles in a bottle" sold to aquarists but hydro-vacuuming a cup of sludge from the substrate of an established healthy aquarium and filtering this through a mesh like a coffee filter or fine net and decanting the "filtered" water into your new tank and throwing in a half dozen of some tetras you can stand will kick start your tank better than all these expensive products. I like to use black neons for this. They are cheap, hardy, attractive and completely inoffensive.
Lacking another aquarium, a couple TBS's of clean unfertilized plant potting soil mixed with water and similarly filtered will make a good substitute. This is not rocket science and these methods work well. What is the mystique of "fishless cycling"?

gakirby · Post by **gakirby** » 02 Jan 2007, 00:36

Larry,

I understand how beneficial using substrate from an established aquarium can be. However, a few hours ago (just my luck) the other aquarium that I have has had an outbreak of ICK in which 1/4 of all the fish are covered in white spots. To me having high ammonia levels is a lot better than having ICK and sort of high ammonia levels. But just my opinion.

The other idea with the potting soil is a good one. However, I am not sure I am comfortable gambling with whether or not the manufacturer of this soil was being honest when they said that they did not add any fertilizer or other chemicals.

I will keep waiting for my cycling to be complete with the 4 bloodfin tetras (about 2 dollars each) and my 2 clown plecos (6 bucks each).

I am going to go to the LFS tomorrow to get an A) an airstone for my tank, and B) a treatment for ICK for the other tank, and C) some "miracle in a bottle", that even if it takes a few days off this long cycle could potentially save some of my fishes' lives.

-Greg Kirby

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 02 Jan 2007, 01:24

I just am used to throwing a set up together and up and running without really thinking much about what I'm doing.

gakirby · Post by **gakirby** » 02 Jan 2007, 01:37

I think when I go to the LFS tomorrow I might try and see if they will let me borrow/have some of their used filter media so that I can get a jump start on my bacterial colonies. This is of course only if the tanks have good levels and there is no disease going around the tank.

-Greg Kirby

gakirby · Post by **gakirby** » 02 Jan 2007, 03:57

Garrrhhh posting in this thread is becoming addicting to me... but it is giving me a way to feel that I am "helping" my fish by becoming more educated, ok enough of that.

I just wanted to update that after a long 24 hours, my LDA68 is now sucking onto the side of the glass between the two suction cups of the heater (instead of resting lifelessly on the upper one). The tank lights havent been on in almost 72 hours which could be allowing him to be more relaxed. Anyway I am going to try the parboiled zucchini (courgette) again tomorrow night and keep trying it for a week until they start eating it. I also need to get some more driftwood so that I can have two happy Panaques...

-Greg Kirby

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 02 Jan 2007, 06:51

It does get habit forming but it's a great way to consider the many wayys diferent people have learned about their fish and exchange their experiences. I have reached a point where expecpt for my bushy noses it seems like most of my plecos are pretty much meat eaters. Totally different from how I viewed plecos in years past. I do have Panaque L204 that eat the wood, a little algae wafers and a lot of Earthworm pellets. Most of my species are fed earthworm pellets, Tetra Color Bits, Frozen bloodworms and live blackworms. Only my common bushy noses are the plecos I still keep that truly do seem to be primary vegetarians. I have at east eight groups of Hypancistrus species, 2 Peckoltia species, 1 Panaque species and 2 Ancistrus species, one of which is the common one and I have 4 varieties, normal and albino, normal and long finned.
I use them all over as my algae controllers as well as standing breeding set ups of each variety.
Then I have a group of red Rhinoloricaria L10a and a group of Sturisoma species that I'm trying to breed.

gakirby · Post by **gakirby** » 02 Jan 2007, 14:13

You have quite a nice assortment of plecos!!!

Once I get my 3 foot tank (about 35-40 gallons) I hope to add to what I have, perhaps end up with 4 panaque and maybe a couple bristlenose plecs, maybe I will even get some vibrantly colored pleco eyecandy...

-Greg Kirby

gakirby · Post by **gakirby** » 02 Jan 2007, 18:40

The fish tank gods from above have decided to reward me for my pseudo patience. For the past week or more my ammonia levels have been at least 4.0ppm or higher with each of my bi-daily tests. Today however my test came up with a mere .25ppm of Ammonia/Ammonium. Although this is not 0/ideal it is a vast improvement.

I just installed my airstone and it is bubbling away in my tank.

-Greg Kirby

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 02 Jan 2007, 19:46

Soon your 15 gal aquarium will be just the way you want it to be. I have my share of large aquariums but I enjoy creating nice displays in a small tanks. For lack of a better term, nano-tanks, between 5 and 20 gallons and sizing down everything in them to a scale that fits the aquarium. I like ten gallon tanks set ups with small plant species, smaller SA tetras, dwarf Cichlids, and dwarf Corydoras and Otocinclus or SE Asian versions with some little red Bettas like B.livida. Boraboras species and Neocardinia shrimps like cherries. Just miniature biotopes. These can be very beautiful and interesting projects. The reef keepers have been begun doing this after years of insisting one had to go big or it just couldn't be done. The nice thing about fresh water aquariums is that it can be accomplished at a fraction of the cost.
As a long time discus keeper I also appreciate the virtues of very large aquariums. I'm just another fish nut.

gakirby · Post by **gakirby** » 02 Jan 2007, 20:55

Although not very large to you and more developed fish enthusiasts, I think when I get my new 40 gallon bowfront tank it will be very exciting because the size will be more than 250% of my current one.... who knows maybe my 15 will become a breeding tank.

Thanks for all your help.

-Greg Kirby

panaque · Post by **panaque** » 02 Jan 2007, 21:34

my two pennies worth:
boiling wood after soaking it for days is likely to cause the problems you describe. When you put the wood in water to soak lots of microscopic life starts living on and off it, especially fungi. They grow fast while you soak and then they all die when you boil and start rotting when you put it in your tank. Boiling may also make the wood itself more likely to rot.
On P. maccus: I find that if you provide them with lots of cover they will show themselves much more, even during the day, especially when you have a couple of them. The more cover they have, the safer they feel and the more they come out. They will then also do lots of interesting stuff like displaying to each other.

gakirby · Post by **gakirby** » 02 Jan 2007, 21:50

panaque wrote:my two pennies worth:
boiling wood after soaking it for days is likely to cause the problems you describe. When you put the wood in water to soak lots of microscopic life starts living on and off it, especially fungi. They grow fast while you soak and then they all die when you boil and start rotting when you put it in your tank. Boiling may also make the wood itself more likely to rot.
On P. maccus: I find that if you provide them with lots of cover they will show themselves much more, even during the day, especially when you have a couple of them. The more cover they have, the safer they feel and the more they come out. They will then also do lots of interesting stuff like displaying to each other.

That's very interesting and I definitely see how your view on what happened could very well be the correct one. As your name is panaque, I am assuming that you have at least one fish in that genus. Thus, I hope that I am right to assume that you have some experience with preparing driftwood for aquarium use that you have purchased in a LFS. What are tips for how I should prepare my next piece of wood before I put it in my tank?? Your insight would be truly cherished.

-Greg kirby

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 02 Jan 2007, 22:09

Hey Greg,
If nothing else your 15 might give you a good source of aged seed materials to jump start your new bowfront.

gakirby · Post by **gakirby** » 02 Jan 2007, 22:15

Thats exactly what I am planning on having happen. I think when it is time, I will buy a Emperor 400 Power Filter so that way I will always have two things of filter media running so that I wont ever have to risk having an accidental cycle when replacing the media. And I will take the media from my 15 and wash it out in the bowfront to give it a nice dose of bacteria, and if that doesn't work I'll have a nice collection of bacteria in my 15's substrate....

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 02 Jan 2007, 22:59

This is not an original idea but I run all of my bare bottom tanks(which is almost all of my tanks} with two sponge filters and schedule it so I alternate cleaning only one at a time. I throw all my dirty sponges in the washing machine with bleach so the cleaned filter sponge is very much biologically dead when it's put back in service. It is drastic but the sponges are just like new and they are just sitting on a shelf ready to grab. I have many extras so I can throw a couple dozen inside a mesh laundry bag and wash them at one time but yet all tanks still have a well broken in sponge in operation at any given moment. They are all large hydro-sponge types and this method is a lot easier for me than trying to hand ring each one relatively dirt free. I dechlorinate the whole load in a separate rinse cycle. I'm one lazy aquarist.

gakirby · Post by **gakirby** » 02 Jan 2007, 23:09

apistomaster wrote:I dechlorinate the whole load in a separate rinse cycle. I'm one lazy aquarist.

Thats not so much as being lazy as it is being resourceful

I haven't made a definite decision about what type of filtration I am going to get, as my new tank is probably not going to happen until the summer,

but why do you feel that sponge filters are the best type. Also how big are these tanks that you have two filters running on?

-Greg Kirby

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 03 Jan 2007, 01:44

When raising fish commercially bare tanks are easier to maintain. The sponge filters are ideal for this kind of application for many reasons. They are highly efficient mechanical and biological filters,easy to clean, have no moving parts to breakdown and work well with everything from newly hatched fry to adult fish. I use mostly 20 longs and 29 Highs in my fish room. 20 longs have high fish carrying capacity to volume and 29's are a nice size for breeding pairs of Discus. I try to standardize tanks and equipment to simplify operations.
In my few display tanks where esthetics matter I use wet/dry or Ehiem Canister filters.My favorite method is a combination of both. These can be concealed so they don't detract from the aquascaping.
I feel these are the best of all filter designs for individual aquariums. Not only that but I run sizes about 4 times larger than most aquarist do for a given size of an aquarium. It is difficult to over filter and change too much water. This gives me a very high water quality and this is an important consideration for a discus breeder but it is beneficial for all fish kept in closed aquaculture systems.
These filters handle heavier bioloads better than any other designs and I am guilty of pushing the carrying capacity of my aquariums. However, I am pretty religious about regular, frequent and large volume water changes. Basically all aquarium filters are based on the principals of wastewater treatment systems used in industrial applications. In the abstract I look upon it as if I were treating sewage to a level of quality that fish will thrive in the process water. Filters only ameliorate pollution thus is born the axiom, "The solution to pollution is dilution." That is where water changes come into play. The perfect aquarium would have natural clean water constantly flowing through it and no filters would be needed.

gakirby · Post by **gakirby** » 03 Jan 2007, 02:20

That was very well put. I will definitely consider using that type of filtration.... so many decisions to make about a new tank...

gakirby · Post by **gakirby** » 04 Jan 2007, 02:01

I am quite surprised at what is now happening. Last night I added some zucchini and to my amazement there were tiny little bite marks on it when I took it out. I am going to microwave it a little tonight before I put it in so that it is softer and make he will eat more. The suprising thing is that I am pretty sure the pleco doing the eating is the one that I was convinced was going to die (the one behind the heater). From what I've observed from about 8 feet away on my computer, it would appear that he is the one making the mess around the tank.

Hopefully more food will be consumed tonight, and tomorrow their driftwood is going back into the tank after some treatment. And hopefully my P. Maccus will become as active as this guy is (for the past hour he's been exploring all the rocks, and clinging onto them and eating the algae from the slate I have.