l14goldie vs acrylic

costatus7 · Post by **costatus7** » 20 Dec 2006, 00:55

Hello catfish keepers

Am currious to know wether l14 scobiancistrus aureatus would like the panaques act like a wire brush in an acrylic tank.

ben

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 20 Dec 2006, 11:48

All plecos will scrape the walls of the tank in search of food. I can't say whether is better or worse than others.

--
Mats

grokefish · Post by **grokefish** » 20 Dec 2006, 19:04

I have had a panaque in my acrylic tank for three years along with glyptoperichthys, Pseudorinelepisand small Peckoltia and have never had this problem.
Matt

costatus7 · Post by **costatus7** » 20 Dec 2006, 22:55

Read in an article in pfk by Julian Dignall on panaque nigrolineatus that they rasp on the acrylic, the goldie plec also has teeth although not like the rasping teeth of panaque which are much shorter desighned for eating other things, I have observed my goldie rasps on wood and some say scobiancistrus is a really a panaque.

ben

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 21 Dec 2006, 11:57

The teeth of Panaque are definitely of a rasping type - to be able to rasp off wood from sunken tree-trunks and such.

The Scobinancustrus is in the tribe of Ancistrini [or subfamily of Ancistrinae to use the older classification], and so is Panaque. But I don't think you can say that the teeth are even remotely similar, and that is generally an important distinction between different genera of fishes. There may be lumpers that want to lump Scobinancistrus and Panaque together, but I wouldn't be sure that they will "win".

--
Mats

synodontis · Post by **synodontis** » 21 Dec 2006, 13:01

I have a scobi in a 4 foot acrylic tank, well planted Dennerle system. He does do algae duties (probably better than my lazy flying foxes!!)

No, he does not scratch the acrylic, although you do see his teeth marks where he's scrapped off the algae

costatus7 · Post by **costatus7** » 21 Dec 2006, 13:37

Flying foxs are pretty lazy when they grow up, try a siamese algae eater, Crossocheilus siamensis, its always hungry for algea and unlike the other cyprinid algea eaters are good temperd later on in life, i went through three fish all labled as it before i got the difinate real one, but it was well worth it, mines like lawn mower. i read goldies tend to eat algea and meaty diets at juvanile age but later on as aldault they tend to just go for the meat. mines very happy eating everything, everything that my limas dont get to first that is

.

ben

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 21 Dec 2006, 14:12

But I don't think you can say that the teeth are even remotely similar, and that is generally an important distinction between different genera of fishes. There may be lumpers that want to lump Scobinancistrus and Panaque together, but I wouldn't be sure that they will "win".

Armbruster considers Scobiancistrus to be a subgenus of Panaque, but refers to them synonymously, with Panaque being the senior synonym.

His distinction seems to be based on them both sharing spoon shaped teeth and a having a lack of buccal papillae.

Here is the link.

.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 21 Dec 2006, 14:28

Racoll: Yes, of course - I've seen that article before some time. Just forgot it again...

--
Mats

grokefish · Post by **grokefish** » 21 Dec 2006, 22:04

I'm sorry I seem to have clicked the 'invisible' tag in my last post.
The clue is in the cat-elog, panaque eat wood, not acrylic.

But seriously if theres nothing on the tank he won't rasp it, and seeing as the Pseudorinelepis is constantly grazing the panels there is never anything on them.
I have to admit that I was worried about this after reading somewhere else that panaques should not be kept in polycarbonate tanks, I think it was a japanese book, the manufacturer assured me it would be ok, a dilema I thought, but I just thought blarx to it and put him in there, I figured I would know for certain then and like I said I have had no problems.

synodontis · Post by **synodontis** » 21 Dec 2006, 22:34

ben,

That's what I got: Crossocheilus siamensis, see the Dennerle book. And no, mine are not lawn movers, I've spoiled them rotten with all the nice frozen foods. I have also an unidentified flying fox that looks similar to the original and he seems to be doing a lot of algae eating.

PsYcHoTiC_MaDmAn · Post by **PsYcHoTiC_MaDmAn** » 22 Dec 2006, 00:31

i have a flying fox (Epalzeorhynchus kalopterus) which looks very similar here is an articl explaing how to tell the difference.

i was convinced i had the true siamese algea eater, untill i moved him into a bigger tank and he stared showing red lips, and since tehn hes gained more colour.

synodontis · Post by **synodontis** » 22 Dec 2006, 19:16

from the link you gave I can verify that my lazy flying foxes are the Crossocheilus siamensis, exactly as photographed in the Dennerle book.

However I do have what appears to be a Epalzeorhynchus kalopterus and he seems to do more algae work than all the others. He's considerably darker and his head has more of a downturn structure than the Crossocheilus.

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 23 Dec 2006, 18:41

True SAE's stop being very useful algae eaters when they mature. Only large groups of juvenile SAE's seem to be good algae eaters. Once they grow up the prefer to eat large quantities of prepared staple foods and that's about it.
That has been my experience over the years but perhaps others have different experiences. I can only speak to my experience with Crossocheilus siamensis ( Formerly Epalzeorhynchus siamensis) The SAE does not always remain very peaceful, at least they can be given to chasing other fish especially each other as they become territorial with age and size. That said, they are a nice fish for large aquariums stocked with fish equal in size and temperment.

naturalart · Post by **naturalart** » 30 Jan 2007, 08:15

Generally I change my SAE's out around 2-3". But I must admit I currently have a 4" SAE in a 100gal. planted tank and it's still helpfully nipping along with my Ancistrus sp.

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 30 Jan 2007, 09:04

I hope I didn't come down too hard on SAE's because even the large one are still a cool fish in the right company
especially in large tanks like yours. I find them a little too active for my own tastes but on the other hand I think when you have several large ones they exhibit some very interesting behaviors. I like the way they undergo mock battles for establishing their pecking order. They don't completely give up algae grazing but do change to a more generalized diet compaired to the juveniles.. Unlike their relatives, the Redtial sharks, I suspect that given the right set of conditions captive breeding would have a good possibility of success but I think a tank of 100 gallons might be necessary.
They are just sold so much like the chinese algae eaters with no info given out to the buyers about their ultimate size and behavior. Amano has contributed much to their popularity but I suspect many of his picturesque aquariums are transient arrangements and not like the long term set ups most of us have of our own.

Yann · Post by **Yann** » 30 Jan 2007, 12:54

racoll wrote: Armbruster considers Scobiancistrus to be a subgenus of Panaque, but refers to them synonymously, with Panaque being the senior synonym.
His distinction seems to be based on them both sharing spoon shaped teeth and a having a lack of buccal papillae.
Here is the link.

Which raise the question do they have a common Ancestor or is it just a question of evolution...it has been shown quite often in Cichlid that fish which have no family corespondant roots can evoluate in a same way under the same condition, depending on a few factors such as biotop and feeding...

Because beside the 2 things lack of buccal papillae, and same teeth, the whole morphology is totally different... beside that the use of the teeth is totally different also...
Still when you look closer, the teeth seems different...I do not argue about the spoon shape teeth of Panaque... I see the Scobinancistrus teeth much as a Knife for mollusque...or like a wood cisor (bad exemple because of the wood) to get a shot at breaking the shell or opening the opercule...

Cheers
Yann

L-14 · Post by **L-14** » 30 Jan 2007, 17:55

All my Scobins (L-14, L-48 and probably L-253) tear sponge filters and leave small pieces on gravel on the floor... I do not know do they ingest the sponge, eat stuffs on the sponge, or tear the sponge just for fun. I guess they may be able to rasp on acrylic it they want to.

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 30 Jan 2007, 18:12

Hi Yann,
You are describing convergent evolution if I understood you correctly?

Yann · Post by **Yann** » 30 Jan 2007, 23:10

Hi Apistomaster!!!

Yes convergent evolution...that was the word I was after....

Yes...strangely we are talking about it a lot among Cichlid but it is hardly if not used at all among Loricariidae....

just my 2 cents

Cheers
Yann

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 31 Jan 2007, 01:02

Hi Yann,
Since we don't even have names/scientific descriptions for so many of our plecs we lag far behind the amount of evolutionary biological studies than has been done among the Cichlids, for example.. In time as there is greater understanding of the phylogenetic relationships more confirmation of examples of convergent evolution will become apparent as will eaamples of divergent evolution.
We will be doing much guessing for the next few decades.

Yann · Post by **Yann** » 31 Jan 2007, 08:51

Hi!

Well with about 88 valid genera and about 673 valid species...we still have a good number of description...the pace is getting up

Sure more work has to be done...but still amazed it has been hardly mentioned...

Cheers
Yann