L260 not eating

ljse · Post by **ljse** » 19 Nov 2006, 05:34

I have had an L260 for 2 weeks and he does not seem to be eating. His belly is very sunken. I have tried cucumber, carrot, live blackworms, frozen glassworms, shrimp pellets, frozen bloodworms and freeze dried tubifex worms. I put him into a small container for a while and put blackworms right by him and he didnt touch them. In the tank, I put the food right by him and he ignores it. I tested the water and everything is fine. What else could I try to do to get him to eat?

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 19 Nov 2006, 15:20

Once their bellies get badly shrunken and if it is still a juvenile the prognosis is not great.
A small hospital tank set up would allow you to keep live worms in close proximity, I would also usie a high concentration of Vita-Chem or equal. Sometimes Vitamin B1 will stimulate feeding. Set the temperature to 88dF with a sponge filter and an airstone. I would also treat with methylene blue to assist in oxygen transport, and treat the water with metronidazole,flubendenzole, praziquantel, and malachite green. Then I would cross my fingers and make water changes with predosed water until it dies.
I find it very rare to pull one of these cases through but every so often it works. The main problem is that it is very difficult to know what disease(s) it is suffering from so it is hard to design a specific treatment.

ljse · Post by **ljse** » 20 Nov 2006, 00:39

Im not sure if its a juvenile, it is about 1.5 times larger than the other one at the lfs and already has pronounced bristles on its pectoral fins. The lfs owner said that it might be wild caught. I put it in a small container with bloodworms and live blackworms a few minutes ago. This method worked on the plec at the lfs, who was also fasting. He only seems to suck up the worms that are right under him, but does not actively go after the rest. My temp has ben 80 since two weeks ago when I got him. At the lfs I checked if he looked good and he looked full so he must have been eating before.

If it helps to identify a cause, his poop was clear, blue tinted and stringy this morning.

How long can a plec go without food?

Post by **Barbie** » 20 Nov 2006, 06:21

Hiya! First and foremost, welcome to the forum. Secondly, could you please edit your profile to include your location in the world? The forum here is very international and it helps us determine what information might best apply to your situation. It's also one of our rules ;).

If the fish was mine, I would warm it up to 84 degrees and presoak the meatie foods (it's preference) in garlic extract before feeding. That will help stimulate the appetite and get him on the right track. I'm assuming the fish is healthy, other than his lack of appetite? No lesions or other problems? I don't recommend removing the fish to try to feed them. It just stresses them out even more. He would definitely need to be in a quarantine tank to be able to ensure he's able to feed. What are your water parameters like? Ammonia, nitrite, all that other stuff that's covered in the sticky at the start of this forum....

Barbie

ljse · Post by **ljse** » 20 Nov 2006, 06:49

He is in a 20 long alone. Originally I wanted to keep him in a 29 with my other fish, but decided to leave him in the 20 since he doesnt seem to compete very well. Using advice from an old thread on this forum, I tried force feeding him, which worked, his belly is now full (previously it was very sunken, now it is flat). I am also cooking garlic and I will dip some bloodworms in it. He has a rio 600 powerhead, a rock cave and some crypts, anubias and java moss.

The parameters are: ammonia-0 nitrite-0 nitrate-~5

He seems a bit more active after his feeding. Previously he spent most of his time stuck to the glass.

He looks perfectly healthy and has no visible problems, other than the feeding.

Should I make my own garlic extract or is it better to buy some?

Post by **Barbie** » 20 Nov 2006, 07:40

I don't know if it's as effective when you make it yourself, as I also don't know if it's cooked or pressed and condensed or how they manufacture it. I would think just the fresh juice would be the best bet, personally. The increase in temperature will make the biggest difference in stimulating his appetite, IME, but you probably still won't see him out feeding much. The food will just disappear sooner ;).

Barbie

bronzefry · Post by **bronzefry** » 20 Nov 2006, 13:51

Hi, ljse. I had the same problem with an L-260. Do you have any driftwood in the tank? I've found that they like to hide a lot, especially when new in a tank. It took quite a few weeks and a lot of patience for small amounts of food to disappear.

Barbie, is it easier to introduce these species in a tank as a group? Will they eat better?
Amanda

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 20 Nov 2006, 15:18

Both Barbie's and Bronzefry's advice is good. 80 dF is too cool. They seem happier at mid 80's when healthy or higher when sick. Having refuge in the form of driftwood and caves will help reduce stress. The excrement description mostly indicate what you already know, it isn't eating well.

ljse · Post by **ljse** » 20 Nov 2006, 17:17

I dont have any driftwood, but there is a rock cave, which he ignores most of the time. Mine doesnt hide at all, every time I go check on him, he is stuck to the glass. Yesterday was the first time I saw him in the cave.

I raised the temperature and I also dipped bloodworms in garlic juice for a while. He still didnt go after them but he did eat two that fell right by his sucker and did not spit them out, which is an improvement.

If he still isnt eating in a few weeks and his belly is sunken, should I force feed him again?

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 20 Nov 2006, 19:10

I have never tried to force feed any starving fish because I did not want to stress them further.(I have been sorely tempted to) After a long period of fasting the stomach shrinks. Evertime the fish eats a few bits of food is helping it get get better. If it is possible for you to feed this L260 some live blackworms it's well worth trying. These worms stay alive until they are eaten so don't contribute to pollution like frozen and prepared foods do. They are almost irresistable to Hypancistrus species even if it can only eat a few a time at first. White and Grindal worms are also good but can only stay alive a few hours in water so remove them if they go uneaten.
The fact that it is eating is really a plus. If you raise the temperatures to mid to high eighties, add garlic and vitamin B1 I think this guy has a good chance of recovering. It did not get this way overnight so you need to be patient as it could take many months for a full recovery. I still advise adding a few pieces of Maylaysian driftwood for providing more hiding places and also the tannins leached from the wood will make the water more like the natural home waters. Everyday it eats anything and lives is a day closer to it's eventual recovery.

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 20 Nov 2006, 19:18

is it easier to introduce these species in a tank as a group? Will they eat better?

In my experience, I have no problem introducing any plec into a community tank provided it is healthy, fat and feeding when purchased.

The only time I bought a plec that wasn't as above it died, so I just don't take the risk anymore.

I find it usually takes about a month before they are comfortable enough to feed at the front with the lights on. Until then I just feed after lights out.

Good luck with your fish ljse. It sounds like you're doing everything right.

It is a good sign that he has eaten a few worms and is hiding under the rock.

You're probably aware, but be really careful with water quality, as any uneaten food may quickly foul the water.

I would test for ammonia and nitrite every day, at different time periods after feeding (eg 1 hour, 5 hours & 12 hours).

ljse · Post by **ljse** » 20 Nov 2006, 22:44

There are plenty of blackworms stuck in the sand, wiggling around and that is the main food I have been giving it. So far he ignores the worms. Would a dip in garlic kill the worms?

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 20 Nov 2006, 23:20

ljse,
That's one of those things you'll just have to experiment with. I don't think garlic will kill them out right. I have heard of allowing blackworms being used as a delivery vehicle for the antihelmenthics which seem to me to be more apt to kill the blackworms than garlic extract. I never try keeping my new plecos in anything but a barebottom tanks so I can keep track of uneaten foods. Also most medications are less effective if there is a high presence of organics which in tanks with substrate is pretty much a given. As to the escaped worms in the sand, they are unavailable to plecos. Only the Corydoras and loaches can get those.
I have a thriving population of self sustaining blackworms in the fine gravel in my cherry shrimp breeding set up where they assist in eating food that my juvenile Ancistrus claro and cherry shrimp miss.

kkorotev · Post by **kkorotev** » 21 Nov 2006, 00:22

ljse,
You are getting some great advice here and I only want to add two things:
1) Healthy Hypancistrus eat. It is one of the few things they do predictably. They may not eat as much as you think they should, but they're the experts. They will not eat if they do not want to and you can not convince them to. They also tend to "make decisions" slowly. Give all things twice as much time to work as you think you should.
2) There is a magic line that suckermouths cross while starving (or being starved). Once over the line, there is nothing you can do. Nothing.

good luck.
Kevin

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 21 Nov 2006, 01:24

Kevin,
That was a very cynical assessment on your part.
I agree with you 100%
Larry
EDIT: Kevin, when I called your post a "cynical assessment" all I meant is that you cut to the chase and did not mince words. I agreed with what you said completely. Sorry if you did not understand the meaning of my 14 words and took offense where none was intended. I thought the meaning and intent of what I said was clear.

Post by **Barbie** » 21 Nov 2006, 02:27

Blackworms don't see the humor in a dip in garlic, no. Garlic is only going to be useful in soaking frozen and prepared foods, IME. The raised temperatures will help as much as anything else though. As Kevin said, the fish are either going to get in and eat or continue to go downhill when they're in that state, with or without much assistance from you, as long as you're supplying high quality food, water, and temperatures. Hopefully he'll be ok. Keep us updated!

Barbie

ljse · Post by **ljse** » 21 Nov 2006, 02:50

I will keep using the garlic soaked frozen bloodworms and leave the temp at 85 and if anything changes, I will post. Thanks for all the help.

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 21 Nov 2006, 04:06

I wonder how vampire plecos react to garlic?

ljse · Post by **ljse** » 30 Nov 2006, 03:01

Today I found him dead when I got home. He hadnt eaten anything and was badly sunken in. There was a clear thing hanging out of each gill. This is pretty frustrating. The other queen at the lfs from the same batch is still alive and is eating a little.

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 30 Nov 2006, 05:09

Sorry you lost it I know how it feels. What is really beginning to peave me is the mortality rates the export/import industry is tolerating. Or should I say causing because these fish are dying when they get caught. Not all losses are preventable but well over half of all plecos caught die before reaching our tanks and most of those are preventable. They have so little cost in them, high markups and an apparently endless supply so few outfits care. We demand. They supply. At least the reef side of the hobby has done something to improve things through, captive breeding, education and standards. Maybe someday a more conscientious group will emerge and fewer fish will needlessly die.
I truly hope that captive breeding eventually makes us less dependent on the wild fish as we get more skilled at breeding some of the most popular small plecos.

ljse · Post by **ljse** » 30 Nov 2006, 22:06

I know what you mean. If I had more time and a pleco that lived, I would love to try and breed these guys. I am considering getting the one at the lfs if it starts eating regularly. Thanks everyone for all of your replies.

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 01 Dec 2006, 00:30

I would think of getting only another L260 that is eating well right out the bag, so to speak. They are too easy to get to spend your money on one that has been struggling ever since your first post. A healthy one does not need this much time to just show signs of maybe making it at last. Especially if you are wanting to build a colony for breeding you want only strong vigorous fish, ya think?
You are located so close to a large metropolitan center that there must be some good sources you could tap for healthy fish.
This is just my opinion, fwiw.

ljse · Post by **ljse** » 01 Dec 2006, 02:58

How about a leopard frog. I know they have different dietary requirements, but do they have the same housing requirements. IE strong current, lots of caves/hiding spots and sand substrate? My lfs has had one for a week and I havent seen it eat since it is in a planted tank, but it always has a rounded belly. I think the coloration on it is amazing. Would I be able to put a male and a female in a 20 long?

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 01 Dec 2006, 03:57

IME there is not any difference in maintaining L134 or L260 at least none in my fishroom. They both like warm water, meaty foods, good current, plants, caves and very clean water. Among the small plecos these are two of my favorites.
General guide line is 1 square foot per fish. I think 4 in a 30 inch 20 long is workable. Actually I've been keeping 12-L260 in a standard 15 gallon tank for 5 months. I plan on splitting them into 2-20longs which may be too many for breeding but that's where I'm going to start. That will give me a better idea than I have now as far as the sex ratios. I eventually want 1 male per 2 or 3 females per set up.

ljse · Post by **ljse** » 01 Dec 2006, 05:00

Once I sell my apisto juvies I will probably go ahead with the leopard, this guy seems to be in much better shape than the l260 and obviously must be eating.

Do they like some veggies in their diet? Or is it just meaty foods.

For water temp, will these guys do ok in 85F or is this only when they are sick?

I have a rio 600 powerhead and wherever I put it, it makes a mountain of sand in one area and leaves a bald spot in another. Would attaching a spray bar keep the fish just as happy as direct current?

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 01 Dec 2006, 05:45

They are technically omnivores. There is an excellent article on their care and breeding under Shane's World for both L134 and L260.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 01 Dec 2006, 10:17

I have , and they definitely eat veggies. Hypancistrus, which I've not kept (yet!) are supposedly nearly pure carnivores, but Peckoltia are more on the "eat just about anything" diet.

--
Mats

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 01 Dec 2006, 15:07

I agree with Mats. Hypancistrus show little interest in standard veggie fare like courgette and cucumber. They prefer algae wafer, tetraprima, bloodworm, mosquito larvae, mysis, cockle and shrimp. They also love pumpkin seeds (seeds have been reported to be part of the natural food of some Hypancistrus).

I do find they really enjoy tinned broad (fava) beans though. this may be because its a lot richer in protein than many other veggies.

I think its likely that they feed on a fairly wide range of foods in the wild, and as such I see the beans as a good diet supplement. I think the fibre may also keep their guts in good shape.

I would probably go for a similar diet with the L134 if I had some.

For water temp, will these guys do ok in 85F or is this only when they are sick?

With regard to temperature, my L262 (also a Tapajos fish) were totally un-phased at 91F when I was treating ich recently. The river is naturally very warm.

When settling them in I would go for about 86F, but after a month or so I would drop this down to 81-83 as a general maintenance temp. This lets you keep other fish with them that don't appreciate quite so warm water.

I have a rio 600 powerhead and wherever I put it, it makes a mountain of sand in one area and leaves a bald spot in another. Would attaching a spray bar keep the fish just as happy as direct current?

With regard to water current, these fish do not require a strong direct current, as they actively seek slower moving areas in the river (such as cracks/crevices). What they do need however is well oxygenated moving water.

I would direct the powerhead across the surface of the water, and deflect it of the opposite pane of glass. This way it picks up much more oxygen than if it were submerged. This is very important with higher temps.

The turnover will be good, the water will still be moving and you won't have a mountain of sand.

Airstones are also good additions.

I hope you have more success with the next batch.

bronzefry · Post by **bronzefry** » 01 Dec 2006, 20:46

kkorotev wrote: They also tend to "make decisions" slowly. Give all things twice as much time to work as you think you should.

good luck.
Kevin

That's a good way to phrase it. In my limited experience, this species seems to be quite deliberate and stubborn in what it does or doesn't do. Even if it leads to his demise. This is my only fish that requires a high temperature. He's started growing a nice peachy colored fuzz since I brought up the temperature past 80.
Amanda

ljse · Post by **ljse** » 01 Dec 2006, 22:23

I plan on keeping them alone. When I had the powerhead just barely under the water, it still blew the sand on the bottom. I have tried a lot of different placement options and I get the same problems. As long as they do not need strong direct current, I will try putting a spray bar at the top. That should oxygenate the water just as well.

Thanks for your patience in bearing with all of my questions.