Fading Pleco?

vader1 · Post by **vader1** » 29 Nov 2006, 17:36

I am humbled to be in the presence of experts & hope you can help. I submit to you a photo of Titan, a 4 and half year old, 8" Royal Pleco. He used to be a a beautiful dark green color, but a few weeks ago I noticed that he had bald spots on his body. I assumed that he was rubbing himself against something so I rearranged the tank - three times. He has now lost about 80% of his color & looks like a piece of petrified wood as you can see. He resides in a 90g tank & his 'cave' is mopani wood. He is eating well & is his usual territorial self. I have 4 other species of Pleco in this tank, all of who are in mint condition. Is Titan in imminent danger? What can I do? =Rhonda=
p.s. If my photo doesn't work out I'll keep trying - new to this whole uploading thing.

Mod edit: Remove "disable BBCode in this post" to allow the picture to show up. --Mats

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 29 Nov 2006, 17:45

If you read the "sticky" at the top of this forum, it gives a list of questions regarding the tank. Can you please copy those questions into a new post and fill in the answers, and we'll be better positioned to help.

--
Mats

vader1 · Post by **vader1** » 29 Nov 2006, 21:15

Thank you Mats for your reply. I just did a water check so I can be accurate.....
Temp: 78
pH: 7.0
GH: 9
Ammonia: 0mg/l
Nitrite: 0.3mg/l
Nitrate: Between 20 & 50
Last water change was Saturday the 18th; I do a 25% water change RELIGIOUSLY every week.
Tank setup: 90g gravel substrate. 2 filters 1xTopfin 60 & 1xTopfin 40. One Fluval 3plus for aeration & water movement. Tronic 200w heater.
Half the tank is decorated with Mopani wood forr the Pleco's and the other side lava rock for the shy hiders.
Tank mates include: Green phantom pleco, Vampire pleco, Rubbernose pleco, Opal Dot pleco, Peppermint pleco, Synodontis Eupterus, 3xRed hook silverdollars, 2 XL Marble angels, 3xGerman blue blushers, 3xGerman guppies, 2xZebra danios, 5 Glass fish, Emperor Tetra, Albino cory, 2xRaphael cats, German ram, Apistogramma, 2xRainbow boesemani, 2 Clowns, 2xLeopard Bushfish.
This tank was set up almost 5 years ago. No new fish added for several months. I feed with frozen brine, bloodworms, mosquito larvae, peas, lettuce and oranges. Flake food and algae tabs also. I feed daily but mix up the choices.
Symptoms: I am submitting another photo that I took 2 weeks so that you can see the rapid deterioration of his color(hopefully it will work). Up close, he looks like he's just rubbed his skin off, but I don't know how; even his belly & dorsal fin is mottled. I should mention that all his tank mates are doing very well. I have not used any meds as I wouldn't know what where to start.
I hope that you can help him; my LFS's haven't got a clue. Thanks.=Rhonda= [img][img]http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o148 ... ems003.jpg[/img][/img]

fish fodder · Post by **fish fodder** » 30 Nov 2006, 01:43

havent a clue mate, all i can suggest is dosing with melafix, but there is obviously a problem of which i have no idea, hope it goes well mate

andregurov · Post by **andregurov** » 30 Nov 2006, 02:06

Does it look like pitting in the tissue - is the discolored skin "sunken" in? Or does that discolored tissue retain the texture of his normal skin?

Piebaldism? The pic makes it difficult to tell if the change is just color or definition as well.

J

vader1 · Post by **vader1** » 30 Nov 2006, 03:03

Sorry about the picture quality, it's not the camera but the water is dark from the mopani wood. The discolored areas are not pitted at all; no bumps, no lumps, no lesions of any kind. His disoloration has been progressive and quick. Appetite is normal (good sign) & still rules the roost. I have a 30g tank inhabited by one lone shell dwelling cichlid and have considered moving Titan into this tank to see if his color comes back; my concern is that he may not be happy moving from a tri plex into a one bedroom and this might set him back. I've heard of a piebald horse but the reference to fish is new to me. What are your thoughts?
Thanks for your assistance. =Rhonda=
huh...just reread my note - what's up with the asteriks?

fish fodder · Post by **fish fodder** » 30 Nov 2006, 03:30

check your private messages rhonda!! top right of the main screen

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 30 Nov 2006, 10:14

I merged the original post and the current one, so that anyone else who's trying to follow this doesn't have to try to find out which thread the second thread was referring to (as the picture in the second thread is to be compared with the first one, it's kind of importat to see both together, in my opinion).

I'm sorry I can't help with the "cure" for this - I can't really say, as it's something new to me.

--
Mats

vader1 · Post by **vader1** » 01 Dec 2006, 01:30

Thanks, Mats for taking care of me; I am severely challenged when it comes to computers.
I could use some input:
I also have a 30g tank with one neolamprologus brevis in it. I have considered moving Titan over to it but am fearful that taking him from his home would only cause him stress. He would be moving from a 90g to a 30g & he is 8" long.
Thanks again. =Rhonda=

andregurov · Post by **andregurov** » 01 Dec 2006, 03:07

Ultimately, if all the tank's parameters are in order and the royal is eating well and doesn't appear to be suffering or in discomfort, I'd just leave it where it is. It is pointless to medicate or treat the creature without knowing what is causing this discoloration. Piebaldism is a genetic trait that causes loss of coloration (melanin) as an animal ages. I've seen it in some strains of cichlids and snakes, but not in catfish before. I know chubby plecs can go through a similar coloration change as they age - perhaps your royal is simply a very unique fish.

Is anyone familiar with any other catfish that exhibit piebalding?

J

vader1 · Post by **vader1** » 01 Dec 2006, 03:50

Thanks.....I will leave him in the tank & see what happens. Stick around though - in case his health turns. I've been wondering if the mopani wood has anything to do with his discoloration? He seems to spend a great deal of time either on top the pieces or hanging underneath them. Is he maybe ingesting a lot of the tannins in the wood? He even resembles a piece of wood. When I look at the wood, I can EASILY see the drag marks from teeth, and I have 4 large pieces of wood that are scarred. Granted, there are 5 other pleco's in the tank but I don't think they all do this. =R=

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 01 Dec 2006, 10:11

is what's normally called a "Royal Pleco", so I expect that's what you've got. Even if that's not the right species, it's certainly clear from the body shape that it's a sp. Panaque species do eat wood, it's a large part of their natural diet.

Mopani isn't their natural wood, as it's from Africa and the Panaque spp. comes from South America. But I doubt that it's causing a problem. Tannin would be very common in their natural habitat, so I very MUCH doubt that's causing this problem.

--
Mats

Aqua Dave · Post by **Aqua Dave** » 01 Dec 2006, 19:01

I'm still learning, but that nitrate level looks high to me. 20 is high, but 50 is really high. Especially if you don't have any plants to suck 'em up. Seems like you'd want nitrite at 0 as well.

David

vader1 · Post by **vader1** » 01 Dec 2006, 21:10

I use a Hagen test kit to measure the nitrate level. I always find it difficult to hold the vial up to a piece of paper and compare what I have to what they show. According to the booklet, a partial water change is not required unless the analysis reads 110mg/l. I have always thought that I was in the 'acceptable zone'. I use Tetratest to check other parameters. When I tested the nitrite level it came up with the best results that I could get; the sheet says that the ideal nitrite level should be kept below 0.8mg/l - which it was. If I am using some cheap a***d testing products please let me know, 'cause all this time I've thought that I'm a star! =Rhonda=

andregurov · Post by **andregurov** » 01 Dec 2006, 21:36

I wouldn't sweat the test kits. All of them suffer from one serious deficiency - our own eyes' color rendering capability. 50 ppm nitrate is obviously not better than 20 ppm, but as long as your water changes keep it at that level I think you'll be okay. Nitrate (over the long term) can suppress fish immune systems, but I doubt that your royal is suffering from any issues related to nitrate. Please keep us posted with pics of the plec, this thread is extremely interesting!

J

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 04 Dec 2006, 10:48

The levels of "acceptable" nitrate is probably up to about 50 ppm (mg/l) - fish can certainly tolerate higher without immediate bad effects, but after some time they will suffer.

Nitrite should really be ZERO (or "not measurable" - because nothing is ever "zero" if you're really picky).

My water comes out of the tap with 25 ppm, so I'd be hard pushed to get BELOW that [Yes, I'm still in the planning stages with my fish-room and related RO-unit that will solve that problem].

One more word about nitrate test-kits: They are prone to failing due to age - there's more than me that has wrongly thought that my water was "near perfect", when it turns out that the test-kit isn't showing as much as it should do. You may want to take a water sample to your LFS and see if they can test it for you].

--
Mats

andregurov · Post by **andregurov** » 04 Dec 2006, 21:03

MatsP wrote:Nitrate-kits: They are prone to failing due to age - there's more than me that has wrongly thought that my water was "near perfect", when it turns out that the test-kit isn't showing as much as it should do. You may want to take a water sample to your LFS and see if they can test it for you].

--
Mats

Ditto - it is best to replace test kits yearly. Expensive, but cheaper than dead fish, endless questions, and the inexplicacy of sudden death syndrome.

J

Deb · Post by **Deb** » 04 Dec 2006, 23:21

andregurov wrote:

Is anyone familiar with any other catfish that exhibit piebalding?

Ancistrus sp.3 exhibits this blotchy skin coloration, called "piebald," as seen here:
http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/im ... ge_id=7807 and in other of the thumbnails for this species. So, that's at least one catfish out of thousands! I haven't been able to find out if Panaque species exhibit this condition at all. Mine don't, so it would be helpful if other members with Panaque species would weigh in.
I tend to agree with this: if Titan is eating and his skin is not pitted or showing lesions and he is not exhibiting patchy coloration in an attempt to adopt camoflage out of fear, then I wouldn't make any changes yet. I'd wait for at least one other physical symptom to appear, before making changes. Keep an eye on him. If he starts shedding stringy skin mucus, you might have a water quality problem. The best thing to do now is get a reliable nitrate reading, and do water changes based on what you find out.

vader1 · Post by **vader1** » 05 Dec 2006, 02:30

[img][img]http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o148 ... ems011.jpg[/img]
This was taken today; it is clearer & crisper & might give you a better look at at his actual skin tone. Unlike the piebalding pic that I viewed, Titan has patches of missing color - are there degrees of balding?
I heard ya about the test kit; mine is at least two years old, though the nitrate test is new. My bad.
I guess what I find difficult about Titans situation is that he seems to be the only one in the tank who is showing any signs of distress.L200, L029, L082, L031(?) & Rubbernose are lookin' good. Other tankmates are not stressed.
I will watch & wait & keep an eye on the water parameters - see what happens. Thanks to everybody who's looking for answers. =Rhonda=
p.s. why doesn't the Rubber Nose have an L#? [/img]

Deb · Post by **Deb** » 05 Dec 2006, 14:17

p.s. why doesn't the Rubber Nose have an L#?

If you have the common variety, Chaetostoma cf. thomsoni, then it does have one - L187b, but itâ??s not used very often when referring to the fish on the forums.

vader1 · Post by **vader1** » 17 Apr 2007, 01:26

[img][img]http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o148 ... il2007.jpg[/img] Hi Folks. Thought you might like to know that whatever was wrong with Titan seems to have righted itself. I never did take him out of the tank or treat with any medication. The only thing that I did differently was move the mopani wood from the left side of the tank over to the right. Titan hangs out only on the left side. I filled Titans side with spagetti rock, and he hasn't been attached to the mopani wood 24/7 for many weeks. Although he isn't as brilliant a green as he once was, he doesn't have a bald spot anywhere on his body. Strange, huh? =Rhonda= [/img]

worton[pl] · Post by **worton[pl]** » 17 Apr 2007, 07:48

Hey,

somewhere on this site, maybe it is an article, maybe post a year or two ago there was a talk about Royal plecos and their abiltities to change color to gold when they have a perfect conditions in aquarium.

I have no idea how it works and it is very hard for me to imagine it could looks like your fish but hey fish world is still a mysterious world ;).

Regards.

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