L134 breeding Janne's article

powerfulpumpkins · Post by **powerfulpumpkins** » 22 Oct 2006, 19:03

I have just read through Janne's super article on breeding the L134 Plec which I have four of- atleast one being male showing the bristles around the tail area.
I note from Janne's article that in the breeding attempts daily water changes were carried out with RO water to lower the conductivity. The first spawn happened after around 3 weeks so the article indicates. What it does not say is how long the daily RO water changes took place before the spawning. Was it just for a few days or was it the full 3 weeks? Could anyone with any information on this or any other suggestions post here so I have the issue clarified.
Thanks

PP

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 22 Oct 2006, 19:54

I am working on the same project, breeding L134 Hypancistrus. In a personal conversation with one of PC's advertisers I buy from, the owner has them at home and he reported his first spawn recently. There are more fry than expected although just how many is still unclear but he estimates about 40 hatchlings instead of the expected 20 or so. I mention this as encouragement to you as it was for me.
I can't speak for Janne, but I believe he probably lowered the TDS down to his target value and then maintained it until they spawned. Continued influxes of the right water,
I think, makes sense. I plan on making frequent water changes using water adjusted to the target values I have set until they spawn.
Apparently L134 is reasonably easy to breed compared to many others, although easy is a very relative term. Only time will tell how easy they are for you or me. I wish you success.

Jon · Post by **Jon** » 22 Oct 2006, 20:07

L134 Peckoltia* ;)

powerfulpumpkins · Post by **powerfulpumpkins** » 22 Oct 2006, 20:39

Thanks for the replies. Apistomaster I guess it also helps if you have males and females

I know I have atleast one male as it has recently regrown fur but I do not know what the other three are.
Interestingly I did a week of cold tapwater changes on the tank and lowered the temp from 30 to 25. When I did that two of the L134's spent more time in the caves (not together I should add) and two took up residence next to each other around the filter uptake the other side of the tank. I noted about a week ago the male displayed its body hair, the only other thing I had done was ADD some ph buffer a few days on the trot as my water often drops low ph wise.
If TDS / conductivity levels are the answer that isnt going to be easy without a machine.

PP

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 22 Oct 2006, 20:39

I stand corrected. Peckoltia they are.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 23 Oct 2006, 11:51

I'd say that you need a pH-meter and TDS-meter if you're going to use RO water to make your fish breed. TDS-meter[1] is necessary to see how much RO water is needed to keep the conductivity low, which in turn makes them think it's breeding season. The pH meter is needed to make sure your water isn't "crashing" when it goes that soft - soft water will be more susceptible to pH changes because there is less buffer in the water. Of course, buffers will add to the conductivity...

[1] TDS-meter is really a conductivity meter with a different scale, and the real measure that the fish cares about is the conductivity - how the conductivity is what it is (which minerals, etc), doesn't really matter that much [within reason, of course].

--
Mats

powerfulpumpkins · Post by **powerfulpumpkins** » 23 Oct 2006, 21:44

Thanks for the reply MatsP
You have lost me somewhat. What do you mean when you say a TDS meter is a conductivity meter with a different scale ?
Janne's article speaks of conductivity. I have a basic TDS meter which I hope will be of use.

PP

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 23 Oct 2006, 22:07

I think a TDS meter converts a conductivity reading electronically or visa versa. Whether there is a standard conversion factor you could use to do it yourself is something I don't know. Matt probably has a better handle on this one. I would be interested in knowing myself is why I replied to your post.
I know that on the detailed report from my water department they state that the conductivity is about 330 umhos/cm and the TDS is about 250 ppm. I don't know if there is a linear relationship between the two one could use as a conversion factor. I have a feeling it isn't that simple.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 24 Oct 2006, 09:23

Larry is correct: The meter is a conductivity meter, but it shows the value in PPM TDS insead of microsiemens (Siemens was formerly known as Mho (Ohm backwards, which is 1/ohm)).

There isn't a direct translation as such - and the TDS value given by the meter isn't very correct either, because the only true way to determine TDS is to take a known volume of water and "distill it off" to 180'C, and weigh the residue from that. Different minerals weigh differently, and the conductive effect of the mineral is completely independent of it's conductivity - say for example sodium is about half the weight of calcium, but roughly twice more conductive... So you only need one quarter as much sodium chloride as calcium chloride to make the same conductivity, despite the latter being much heavier... Does that make sense?

However, as long as the TDS-meter is accurate in the reading from one measurement to another, it's fine for the purpose of keeping the water good and soft. The key isn't how much dissolved solids you have, but the conductivity, and the conductivity should be "same" every time you fill in new water. What scale you use for the conductivity is not particularly important - as long as you use the same scale every time. So if you aim to fill with (say) 100 ppm water every time, that will be a fine thing. Note: 100 ppm may be too high - but you don't want to go too low either...

--
Mats

Post by **Barbie** » 24 Oct 2006, 15:35

The kH is actually the portion of your TDS that you'll need to be checking. Test your tap water, then figure out just how much you need to add to RO to raise it to 2 degrees or a bit more. That will stabilize your pH from crashing (as long as you're doing regular routine maintenance that is!), then you just test the TDS of the new water with the 2 degrees kH and make sure you always add that same amount of tap every time to reach the same reading. While adding hardness to the water is important for the happiness of the fish, the really important part is that you're adding enough "stability" to keep things from swinging around and stressing them.

Barbie

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 25 Oct 2006, 09:42

Barbie,
Thanks for posting that information. I already knew that it was the calcium carbonate that stabilized(buffered the pH) so I am doing all I need to produce the good spawning water. It is easy for me because our kh is about 5dGH out of the tap so a 50/50 tap/ro mix produces good pleco breeding water. Our Magnesium sulfate only increases total hardness to about 6-7, a point or two above KH.
I have to change it to 20/80 at the high end to get some tetra eggs to even hatch; neons won't hatch for me unless the hardness is undetectable using chemical testing methods. My replacement L134's are coming in by 11 am tomorrow @ 3 inches long so they should be spawnable soon after a few months of conditioning. Hopefully, while still coinciding with the SA spawning season, just in case it matters.
This is a good thread because we are trying to breed L134's at roughly the same time. I look forward to reports of success soon and continued sharing of notes.

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 25 Oct 2006, 11:36

Whether there is a standard conversion factor you could use to do it yourself is something I don't know

There isn't a direct translation as such - and the TDS value given by the meter isn't very correct either,

The conversion coefficient that is used by both the PFK website (on it's conductivity converter) and on my conductivity meter is.......

Divide conductivity (ÂµS/cm) by 2 to get TDS (ppm or mg/l).

There are probably other coefficients, but this one is very simple and appears to be the standard.

Check this article out for more info.

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 25 Oct 2006, 12:14

Racoll,
Thanks for pointing out that the solution was already right under our noses for coversion of units. Could not be much easier and even if it is off by a little it isn't enough difference to matter from an aquaristic POV.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 25 Oct 2006, 17:31

apistomaster wrote:Racoll,
Thanks for pointing out that the solution was already right under our noses for coversion of units. Could not be much easier and even if it is off by a little it isn't enough difference to matter from an aquaristic POV.

Indeed, to me, that's close enough... I just hadn't seen that article...

--
Mats

powerfulpumpkins · Post by **powerfulpumpkins** » 29 Oct 2006, 19:11

Right so as I understand it then Janne changed the water of the L134's from 300uS or roughly 150 TDS to 150uS or roughly 75 TDS. If I am correct when down to 75 TDS is a tank somewhat open to crashes etc as already suggested?
I think I need at some point to move my L134's to a tank of their own as they are currently with Discus etc which I feel would not like sudden changes like this- I would not want to harm them. I do not however currently have a replacement tank !!

PP

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 30 Oct 2006, 02:32

I don't think a pH crash is likely so long as the ratios of buffers remain propotionally the same, albeit at lower, TDS level. Even at 75 it is higher than many natural waters these plecos often come from.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 30 Oct 2006, 12:27

Unfortunatley neither TDS nor conductivity tells ANYTHING about the stability of the water. If I were to add couple of spoonfulls of gypsum (CaSO4) to a bucket of "mineral free water"[1], it would end up in the 20's on the dH scale (and thus should show something like 400 ppm or 200 uS). But the buffer capacity is still "none-at-all".

However, if the TDS measure is based on traditional drinking water, you can be pretty sure that at least a decent portion of the TDS is CaCO3 which is a good buffer.

To know this for sure, you'd need a kH test or CO3 test.

Larry is correct that the natural water is MUCH softer than this, but it also doesn't have the closed-system problems that an aquarium has - pH crashes happen because the system is overloaded, and in natural habitats, that does occassionally happne, but the water is constantly moving and being replaced, so it's less likely to change suddenly. More importantly, some of the rivers in the Amazon are indeed very acidic due to tannin from fallen leaves, trees and other detritus and very little buffering capacity. pH as low as 4 isn't completely unheard of - about the pH of Coca-Cola or Lemon Juice.

[1]Such as RO-water.

--
Mats

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 30 Oct 2006, 15:45

In order for your conductivity to drop, but your buffering (alkalinity) to remain the same, make sure you use separate products for your general, and your buffering minerals.

I use Kent "RO Right" as my general (Mg, K, Na, Ca) mineral provider, while I use Kent "pH Stable" as my buffer.

If I want to drop conductivity, but keep pH staple, I just keep the amount of buffer the same, but decrease the amount of "RO Right" that goes into the RO mix.

Does that make sense?

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 30 Oct 2006, 17:46

I wasn't as clear as Icould have been, above. By dilution of RO water with my tap water I am maintaining sufficient KH and the rest of the chemical naturally present that I don't have to add any RO reconstituting chemical to create stable soft water. I am fortunate to have natural water with a good balance of chimical compounds and elements that dilution works well.
While they do not care that much for Coca Cola Heckel Discus and Altum angels do very well in water with a pH of 3.5 to 4.5 and with very low conductivity. Just check out our Finarama forum topics on keeping wild angels especially altums by those trying to breed the " unbred altum", H. Bleher, 2006. There, the topic of water chemistry has reached a point of high art. pH crashes are possibillities that must be dealt with as we try to find the "triggers" the altum requires to reproduce in captivity.
I do not recommend attempting these conditions in your aquariums unless you know exactly what you are doing. I am setting the altum project aside as my focus is to breed Heckels but the problems are much the same. After nearly 50 odd years of domestication of Syphysodon aquifasciatia there are no tank raised strains of pure Heckel discus being raised. I have bred wild caught S. aquifafasciata dozens of times and find them not particularly difficult. Heckels, on the other hand, are not as acommodating.
What does this have to do with catfish? Only to point out that our water "problems" pale in comparison with some other SA blackwater species.

psionic001 · Post by **psionic001** » 26 Dec 2006, 22:46

I'm jumping in late here... but this is just a quick bump to find out how you people are going with your L134 projects.

I have been struggling with this conductivity Vs TDS issue and research finally concluded that it was OK for us Aquariusts to use a 2:1 ratio. It's great to see this conformed in this thread.

Do you prefer having substrate or bare bottom for these low hardness tanks. Which is better for buffering capacity?

thanks

Matt